158
submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by Grumpus_Maximus@thelemmy.club to c/historymemes@piefed.social
all 49 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] Jankatarch@lemmy.world 1 points 48 minutes ago* (last edited 44 minutes ago)

I don't think intention was to discrediting these people at the time.

I know in modern times they especially refrain from teaching how "orientals" contributed to math and science tho.

I mentioned how Arabs worked in early Algebra to my friends once and they started talking to me about propaganda.

(On sidenote I love being a middle-eastern immigrant in US, everyone assumes I am transphobic! Awesome. /s)

[-] eestileib 1 points 1 hour ago

He's Karl der Große, not Charlemagne

His HQ was in Aachen

He's German dammit

[-] Griffus@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 minutes ago

Why ever did the Anglos add the magne/main to Karl? Makes no sense.

[-] jpablo68@infosec.pub 1 points 2 hours ago

Salah ad-Din in spanish is "Saladino"

[-] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 hours ago

Fair, but Sheikh Zubayr sounds so much better than Shakespeare.

[-] spacegoat@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

Is posting a tweet from a dweeb considered meming these days

[-] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 3 points 10 hours ago

can we latinize all names, they sound way cooler

[-] Sylvartas@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 8 hours ago

Idk about that. "Geber" sounds like a downgrade from "Jabir Ibn Hayyan"

[-] Jankatarch@lemmy.world 2 points 54 minutes ago

Geber just means "die(derogatory)" in Turkish.

[-] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 1 points 4 hours ago

a bad latinization, Iabir would be more appropriate

[-] IAMgROOT@lemmy.wtf 1 points 4 hours ago
[-] fubarx@lemmy.world 4 points 13 hours ago

Someone do this for romanized historical Chinese, Japanese, and Hindu names.

[-] CombatWombat@feddit.online 11 points 18 hours ago

Okay, but it would be kinda awesome if you called ole Billy Shakes Sheri Zubayr? I might even start doing that?

"Stop latinizing"

We literally did centuries ago. No Arabic name is ever latinized because - aa it turns out - if you stop using Latin, you don't need Latinization.

For existing names, I don't see a problem with using the historic remnant. It was useful at the time because of Latin grammar and the Latin names are much more well established.

It happened with every name by the way. See Confucius, Nostradamus or Copernicus.

What localized name should you call Copernicus by the way?

The Latin Nicolaus Copernicus?
The Polish Mikołaj Kopernik?
The Middle Low German Niklas Koppernigk?
The Modern German Nikolaus Kopernikus?

Turns out being a scientist in a multilingual region leads to a bunch of different names.

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 12 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No, I disagree - same with countries names. Would be good to not anglicize or Latinize anything anymore. It's ok if people expand their boundaries and pronunciation skills.

Call the person or thing by what they go/went by.

We recently did it with "Türkiye".

[-] Starik@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago

But it’s so cringe when English speakers suddenly switch to a foreign accent to pronounce one word. And would you want to force speakers of other languages to do the same instead of using their own versions of English names?

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 1 points 4 hours ago

It's ok if people expand their boundaries and pronunciation skills.

Nobody is forcing anyone. It's more about the purposeful latinization of something, i.e. the context of the OG post.

[-] Delphia@lemmy.world 3 points 11 hours ago

I even find it weird when people who do have that heritage do it. It just rings fake.

Theres a celebrity chef who is terrible for it. When 99% of the time on camera you have perfect American "non regional media diction" but pronounce "cilantro" or "Jalapeno" like someones abuela it comes across like someone putting on an act.

We did not do it with "Türkiye". Also note that ü is a different letter from u, not just a u with decoration.

The Turkish government requested international organizations to refer to Turkey that way:

In May 2022, the Turkish government requested the United Nations and other international organizations to use Türkiye officially in English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

Everyone else continues to call it Turkey, especially newspapers. It's why the Wikipedia article continues to be called "Turkey". Neither me nor you are a country or international organization.

Same with Ivory Coast and its official name "Côte d'Ivoire".

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 1 points 17 hours ago

That's simply restating something that I said we should do differently.

A country requested to be called differently, and people still call it what they know it as. I'm saying it's fine if we try to learn it.

Yes, u and ü are pronounced differently - more to my point.

[-] yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 16 hours ago

The US prefers to be called "America" yet I still don't call them by that name either.

I don't need to abide by what some fascist Turk says you should call their country or not.

Maybe once Turkey stops trying to wipe out the Kurds I'll respect what far-right Turkish nationalists want that country to be called.

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 2 points 15 hours ago

Lol - That's just deviating from the entire context of the discussion, but ok.

[-] wieson@feddit.org 5 points 1 day ago

Guilty as accused.
Türkiye

[-] Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Thanks for the correction, edited it. Not so hard.

[-] Lumidaub@feddit.org 8 points 1 day ago

Dude. "We've always done it like that" is your argument? Can you not see how it would be beneficial to try and emphasise that a lot of contributions to science came from non-European scholars?

[-] RaphaelSchmitz@feddit.org 21 points 1 day ago

This was not good reading comprehension, if not malice

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

Disagree, he's right on.

Nah, I'm arguing only to keep old and established names only. It makes in my opinion little sense to start referring to the one's I mentioned as Kong Qiu, de Nostredame, or Koppernigk.

Feel free to use whatever name you like. Whether you choose to use the romanized or established latinized name is none of anyone's business.

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

You're saying this as if the process is latin specific. Just like how we can see Sheikh Zubayr written in the post in English, you could do the same in other languages, too.

It's deliberate whitewashing of scientists that's disgusting and your defending it here that's appalling.

I never claimed it was specific to Latin? You can see it with the example of Copernicus that it was Latinized, Polonized (?) and Modern-Standard-Germanized.

Franz Liszt is called Liszt Ferenc in Hungarian. That's because Ferenc is the Hungarian variant of Franz and Hungarian names are spelled backwards for some reason.

I could provide so many more options where people were given several names because they did not live in a monolingual region.

In Czech, women's last names take on the -ová suffix. Even if they aren't Czech, didn't speak Czech or never set a foot into Czechia. For example: Hillary Clintonová

I frankly don't care enough about what languages do to names. If the intent is to wipe out other cultures then it's obviously bad. Like colonizing Brits did with native landmarks (e.g. Uluru -> Ayer's Rock). If the intent is to adjust the name to a cultures grammar, pronunciation or similar, I couldn't care less.

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 3 points 20 hours ago

Except the intent is very much likely to wipe out other cultures here and not just to match grammar or pronunciation.

Franz -> Ferenc isn't as drastic a change as Ibn Sina -> Avicenna

The former retains similarity to the original whereas the latter makes it completely unclear the origin was Arab.

[-] yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 16 hours ago

Ibn Sina -> Avicenna seems to sound similar though, but I can't speak Latin or Arabic.

At least the cenna and Sina part, you can see they're related. The people Latinizing the name did not just roll a die I presume and had respect for the people who came up with something. It's why algorithm and algebra are both directly from Arabic, algorithm from the guy who wrote this book:

The Concise Book of Calculation by Restoration and Balancing (Arabic: الكتاب المختصر في حساب الجبر والمقابلة, al-Kitāb al-Mukhtaṣar fī Ḥisāb al-Jabr wal-Muqābalah; or Latin: Liber Algebræ et Almucabola)

Al-Jabr

At least in my opinion the Latinization does not seek to hide the fact it's Arabic. In fact, it just takes (directly) untranslatable Arabic terms and puts them into Latin.

It is not certain just what the terms al-jabr and muqabalah mean.

No idea how "Ibn -> Avi" makes sense though, I'd be surprised if it was done with any hostile intent though.

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

It doesn't come off as Arabic and for a long time I myself, despite having known the Arab name, thought it was a different western guy.

This is is a largely unpopular take if you look into criticisms of how the west names things, provided one has a radicalization towards seeing things such as whitewashing etc.

[-] themoken@startrek.website 31 points 1 day ago

Eh, as long as it's just the proper noun, I don't really care that much. Languages can have their own versions of nouns based on the cultural context at the time. Is calling Deutschland Germany a problem? Zhongguo China? Nah.

You wanna call Shakespeare something different, go for it, it just means he was important enough to have a moniker in another language.

[-] Yliaster@lemmy.world 5 points 1 day ago

It's a bad analogy because calling Deutschland Germany doesn't make you think Germany is an English concept, whereas rebranding all scientists in a whitewashed manner projects an image of all scientific breakthroughs being owed to the west.

[-] wyldrstallyns@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 day ago

That a far more complex, multifaceted issue, TBF, but I can understand your feelings and they're valid. 🙌🏼

[-] Marternus@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 day ago

I remember when I first listened to a newscaster in aljazeera saying: Gerhard Schröder Sometimes it makes it worse trying...

[-] NightFantom@slrpnk.net 13 points 1 day ago

I've never heard of any of those names, latinised or not, what did they do?

[-] emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works 3 points 4 hours ago

Ibn Sina is probably one of the most influential philosophers in history, because he was the authority on Greek philosophy - in particular Aristotle - and his commentaries would become the authoritative version of Aristotlean philosophy.

[-] Akasazh@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago

From the philosophical perspective the Arabic philosophers where instrumental for their commentaries on Aristotle. Early edieval philosophy in Europe was mainly rehashing Plato's philosophy within the framework of catholicism.

Aristotle was all but forgotten in western philosophy until the Arabic translations and commentaries started to get translated into Latin again.

There was this window in the fourteenth century where there was this great interchange between Arabic and Christian philosophy. This was when these Arabic scholars got their Latin names, as they were seen as part of the same tradition. A lot of Arabic tems where incorporated in western like algebra and algorithm. (Maybe op wants is to revert those words too?)

Unfortunately in the late Middle Ages this exchange was severed as, like Galileo and Bruno the free thinking philosophers crashed with hard line religious figures. In the Islamic region the philosophical tradition was curtailed whilst in Europe it managed to survive and propagate the names of these important thinkers.

My point is that the latinization is not out of spite, but out of respect. It was never about polarization between culture but rather in celebration of the exchange of ideas. Furthermore in modern philosophy books since at least the eighties the Arabic names are mentioned.

In addition to that, there's a tendency in mathematics to name a formula or theorem after the mathematician that discovered them if they are of western origin, meanwhile discoveries by arab/muslim/non-western academics are often referred to by a name that conceals the identity of the person behind them.

It may be a small thing, but it definitely skews the perception around scientific progress in a eurocentric direction, willingly or not lending support to ideas of superiority of some ethnicities over others.

[-] Gladaed@feddit.org 5 points 1 day ago

You should avoid using letters that do not exist or have different pronunciation. Or accept that people pronounce names offensively wrong. Noone cares enough to know every language and place of origin before reading about a thing.

And most people cannot even read the alphabet (IPA). Foreign scripts even less so.

[-] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 3 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Sounds like this guy doesn't care about proper pronounciation, though. And Arabic isn't really a language that's completely unrecognizable when you pronounce the alphabetized names with most european accents (not including English), in contrast to Chinese.

[-] DrBob@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 day ago

Hearing people pronounce Qatar should drive this home. English lacks the glottal "k" sound from Arabic so everything is on the table.

[-] rumschlumpel@feddit.org 2 points 1 day ago

Meh, close enough. I'd be surprised if Europeans pronounce even one letter right when reading "Zhōngguó" (China).

[-] olafurp@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

This is not surprising, pretty much everyone did this for names back in the day. Kings, popes, cities and countries all have different names based on the language.

[-] Canadian_Cabinet@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

People still do it nowadays. I've see Spain's king Felipe VI anglicized as Phillip VI countless times

this post was submitted on 03 Jun 2026
158 points (100.0% liked)

History Memes

2575 readers
799 users here now

A place to share history memes!

Rules:

  1. No sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, assorted bigotry, etc.

  2. No fascism (including tankies/red fash), atrocity denial or apologia, etc.

  3. Tag NSFW pics as NSFW.

  4. Follow all Piefed.social rules.

  5. History referenced must be 20+ years old.

Banner courtesy of @setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world

OTHER COMMS IN THE HISTORYVERSE:

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS