Actual leftists have always been pro gun though...
Yes, Karl Marx wrote:
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary."
"To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party [bourgeois], the workers must be armed and organized."
This is going over a lot better than when I said it, in progressivepolitics@lemmy.world no less. What a difference a month makes these days, I suppose.
I would fuck with that sub Lemmy. I got into an argument and they deleted every single comment I made in another separate post, even though it was at +14. Idk if they're tankies or punks, but they both quacking to me.
I don't think being anti-gun makes one not an actual leftist.
Sure, Marx wrote that stuff in Resplendent606's comment, but:
- I think it's worth bearing in mind that when Marx wrote that, guns were still using powder and percussion caps.
- Not everything Marx said was gospel.
Anyone not in favour of recreational nukes is in agreement that there should be a limit on the amount of lethal force a person should be allowed to own, and I think reasonable people can disagree on whether or not guns are within that limit.
America is well past the point where any of this is going to end without gunfire. So yeah. Leftists, it's time to admit that MAGA doesn't give a shit about your "protests" or your "letters to your representative". Protests only work if the person you're protesting gives a shit what you think.
It's time to get your guns. Mussolini didn't end up hanging upside down in an Italian town square because of protests.
Mussolini didn’t end up hanging upside down in an Italian town square because of protests.
While you're right that the people who killed Mussolini were armed dissidents, it's worth remembering that he was allowed to be taken after being deposed after a vote of no confidence from the fascist government of Italy after they got their shit kicked in a few times militarily, and it was the King who removed and presumably arrested him before the citizens did their thing.
And also, the Allies were plowing a path of destruction towards Italy.
Moral of the story: no great story is as simple as we need it to be. There is still politics, there are still decisions by the ruling class that allow the next steps to happen and that ruling class can have their will bent. We still need to be involved in the political system, armed mobs cause as much harm as good even in the best of circumstances, so we want to avoid that if possible, but we need to also have that force behind us or the politics won't work.
The calm that washes over me when I see people just casually talking sense on the internet
Ikr it's the gentle reassurance that nuance and substance are still out there.
To rephrase this line
Protests only work if the person you're protesting gives a shit what you think.
Protests only work when you directly affect their vested interests. They don't care about you or what you think. Period. Yet, they do care about something.
Organize. Find out what those vested interests are. Hold them hostage. Create the credible threat that if they do not start representing our interests, as is their assumed role of the position they have been appointed to, then we will royally fuck it up and hit them where it hurts.
Then, it doesn't matter if they care what we think, we have established our authority and made it known that it will be enforced with immediate consequences. If they want their authority as a government official then they will respect our authority as their constituency or else.
Most of all, be prepared for them to retaliate and defend their interests. To deter us and threaten us to stand down. These are the times in history where we can't back down. We cannot give in to them just to save our own skin when it comes at the cost of, if allowed to continue, the skins of millions of others under the boot of their oppression.
We fight and stand our ground knowing that we may possibly die, but also possibly survive and save millions of lives, or we do nothing, let millions fall to their atrocities, until they finally turn their sights on us and we die with regret that we didn't even attempt to stop them.
They can't do this without us so, if they want to go this route, we need to be ready to sink the whole goddamn ship so they don't get their cake and eat it too. Mutually assured destruction is not just a nuclear deterrent. The best part is, us workers can rebuild. We built this all to begin with. The owning class assholes, if they get rid of us, will live out their final moments in a burned out husk surrounded by resources with no ability to use them. They will be Kings of nothing, to die of thirst surrounded by water with nothing but their imaginary wealth to keep them company.
WRONG.
It’s past time to get your guns. We (I vote Democrat and live in a blue state) have banned most guns.
Great fucking job.
Oh and btw most (as in >50%) gun deaths in the USA are from suicide where how the gun functions or how many bullets it holds at one time are irrelevant. Pity that no political party in America gives a shit about all those miserable souls who want to die. Easier to ban guns and disarm ourselves in the face of fascists who’ve taken over our nation.
Like I said… great fucking job. Quick, someone bitch about Palestine, that’ll surely help.
“Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.”
Quickest way for trump to take away everyone’s guns is for people he doesn’t like to arm up. Libs, minorities, etc. incidentally - trump is the only president who has suggested guns be taken away. Not even the snowflake republicans’ deepest fears and hatred of the Democratic presidents was ever validated by one of them saying guns should be taken away like trump.
“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida … to go to court would have taken a long time,” Trump said at a meeting with lawmakers on school safety and gun violence.
“Take the guns first, go through due process second,” Trump said.
Turns out they hate women more than they love guns.
I think this episode plot of Bojack is one of the most bitingly effective takedowns of US culture I have seen, these words live rentfree in my head as a future epitaph to put on the gravestone of the US.
Turns out they hated women more than they loved guns.
Proceeds to ban all guns Turns out America hates women more than it loves guns.
Nobody is taking the guns from Americans, because nobody has the balls or the numbers of enforcers to do it.
For reference, the number of Americans who came out to the No Kings Day protests was larger than the sum total of all enlisted US Military and police officers. Next look at the number of Americans who own guns, it's much larger than all of the above.
They just gradually redefine American and the gun problem disappears, ez
"They're not taking my guns away, just those America hating ~~immigrants~~ ~~gangs~~ ~~communists~~ ~~democrats~~ domestic terrorists"
US people ☕️
Mag dumping each other for fun and profit.
Leftists have always been pro gun. There's just not that many leftists. It's the Democrats and neoliberals who think only Trump and his government should have guns.
I'm not American, but I consider myself left wing, and I am pro gun but I am also pro gun control. I don't think outright banning them is a solution but I also don't think letting them out in the world unchecked is a good idea either.
Are you talking about people in the USA or people elsewhere in the world? The USA is always "special" when it comes to matters like this.
Definitely just the USA. I mentioned earlier that I really respect NZ deciding to disarm after their last public shooting. That's something that could really happen when corruption is that low and people are educated and healthy.
It's definitely not just an American thing.
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary." -Karl Marx
America does have a "unique" culture around guns, but that's not all that prevalent on the left. What's driving interest in guns is the sad fact that we might need to use them.
The thought process that "we might need to use them" is evidence that the left in America does think about guns differently than the rest of the world.
You should mention that that was Karl Marx before the US civil war. Not Karl Marx in an age where drone-based warfare is common.
The potential to need to use guns is a statement of fact. The alternative of counting on law and order to correct the overreach of a fascist cop is no longer valid. When people start getting disappeared without due process, that changes the calculus entirely.
I've got no clue what drones have to do with this. That's just one more threat of extrajudicial state violence we might very well have to face. I'd rather try to defend myself from a drone with buck shot than a slingshot.
I thought leftists are always pro-gun, while its the liberals (which includes those progressives in the US Democratic party) are always against guns.
I always felt like a minority in politics. I grew more and more supportative of egalitarian policies as a I grew older, coming to that conclusion from both logics (I wouldn't want to be treated that way), and also from experience as a racial minority.
But I've literally always been pro-gun since the moment the gun topic came up in school.
Which just leaves me in a very confused position when I learned that out of the two big parties (those that can actually win an election), the party I agree more with opposes guns. I just had a mini-identity crisis.
So while I do vote for democrats, I do so begrudgingly, because there is just no viable left-of-center pro-gun party. Every time they say "gun control" on an election year, I just facepalm, like c'mon just drop the issue from the party platform and win a lot more elections, the time to debate guns was 1789, now its kinda too late, cats out of the bag.
"Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary"
-Karl Marx
I disagree with Stalinism and Maoism, but Marx had great ideas, but sadly people just did a horrible interpretation/implementations of it and used communist/socialist aesthetics to justify their authoritatianism and never actually doing any real egalitarian stuff.
Being pro gun, doesn't have to mean you're against sensible gun laws though
So far, what democrats propose aren't really sensible.
They are giving authority to police to dictate who can or cannot obtain a gun permit.
Like wtf, fuck the police, I don't trust them with shit.
Give that power to like, idk, some sort of jury and maybe we'll talk about gun control. But I ain't trusting cops with the discretion to hand out gun permits. They'll give it to a white young-adult that's racist as fuck and threatened people, but will simultaneously refuse to give a permit to a black store owner seeking for a gun to defend against a potential white mob trying to attack his store.
Before 2022, most Democratic jurisdictions operate under "May-Issue" laws, meaning, cops had broad discretion on whether to issue a permit or not, but then the supreme court, ironically its the 6 fascist-alligned judges, struck it down and the whole US is now under "Shall-Issue" laws, which means, cops cannot deny a permit if the background check comes clean, so no more denying guns to non-whites and using "he looks suspicious" as a reason.
Background checks? Yea fine.
Manatory gun safety training? Sure.
Permits? Ummm only if its a neutral nonpolitical jury/citizen's commission or something like that. Cuz otherwise nope, can't trust cops with the discretion.
Gun Registry? Don't give it to the government. An independent citizen's commission should maintain the registry, only accessible to investigators if there's probable cause and a warrant should be required.
Ironically, leftists are more in line with the constitution with our reasoning around gun ownership. In my book, anyone who isn't happy with the lax state of gun laws is equally an ally and we shouldn't draw lines in the sand for no reason. You can both own a gun and want it to be harder for people who shouldn't get them to get them, it's almost as silly as the "you criticize society and yet you participate in society" argument.
I don't know. I don't think we really are good at deciding who should and shouldn't have a right. there seems to be something fundamentally broken in that
Look how black panthers existence changed many laws in carry permits, and you understand why both sides needs to be pro-guns
There’s no place in a civilised democratic society for people to be walking around with guns. America, on the other hand…
In a civilised society, you don't fear every random passerby will try to kill you, so it is irrelevant what they are carrying.
Because fascism is here and guns are a requirement now if we don't want to live in an authoritarian future.
I've been anti-gun my whole life. That's because I had some faith that our society was intelligent enough that we could create a less violent nation that respects democracy and votes our way into a better future.
Reality Check: That isn't our society.
Guns may not save us from authoritarianism, but not having them guarantees it. Wish it wasn't so, but it is.
If this train keeps derailing, they will end up coming for you. That's how fascism works. You want a way to defend yourself or not?
Been around guns my whole life. Shot them, loaded them, cleaned them, but IV never owned one myself. Mostly for a lack of wanting. But now seems a good time to have my own for better or worse.
Girlfriend really don't want me to have it tho
Why though? It's not like people are getting kidnapped off the street oh wait
Same here.
To me it's a useless item.
I saw a competition where competitors would stand on a blue square and quickly shoot all the blue targets that popped up, then move to a red square and shoot the red ones. It was timed and looked like a ton of fun. I thought, this would be the only reason I would buy one. But you know, I have a lot of hobbies. That looked real expensive. I would have to hang around gun ranges and gun people. There would be a dangerous weapon in the house. We don't have kids but visitors do. My wife doesn't want it. In the end I just didn't want it.
I have a lot of friends who are Democrats and a lot of them own guns. I laugh every time Republicans say Dems want to take their guns. I'm like, no, they just want some simple safety rules and the strange thing is 80% of all gun owners used to to. I don't know if that's still true but the number came from the NRA a decade or two ago. Yeah, THE NRA. They even used to be in favor of an automatic weapons ban.
I don't think more guns is the answer, but I can kind of see the logic for a lefty to want to defend himself...or his country.
Anti-gun sentiment doesn't belong in a country where there are more firearms than people.
It's always been idiocy. Stupid democrats saying stupid things because they know their idiot followers will lap it up. It's been bullshit the entire time.
I don't believe in the horse shoe theory except when it comes to gun owners larping about rising up against the government.
Rising up against the government is a LARPy roleplay fantasy by people who don't have community or culture.
However, making your insane, fascist government think twice before knocking down random doors in random neighborhoods lest they face a hail of gunfire, that is almost a necessity right now.
This country has too much wealth and resources that a lot of people would love to control, Trump is just the first to succeed at getting into the vault, but there have been many, many others who would have taken the US by force from within given the means.
Yes, better social policies and better international relations would have done a better job mitigating that, but we didn't get that, so here we are. Huddled behind our weapons and hoping they scare the monsters enough that they leave us alone.
Super unrelated but anyone ever hear the song John Brown's Body? Lovely ditty!
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