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I dont know why they have to lie about it. At $5/8ft board you'd think I paid for the full 1.5. Edit: I mixed up nominal with actual.
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this post was submitted on 07 May 2024
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Mildly Infuriating
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Shouldn't the normal size be 2? Given, well, the name?
You'd think so, but no.
Short story is the 'nominal' size is the size before going into a planer to smooth the faces.
Yes, it makes little sense, like many things related to construction stuff.
It's not a 2x4 it's a "2x4."
And if you're a fan of quotation marks you could call it a "2"x4"."
You have to escape the quotes....
"2\"x4\"" or use differing quotes '2"x4"'
[Object][Object]This one of those things that sounds correct, but isn’t even remotely true. Like not at all, not even based on anything even.
Wall finishes varies in thickness wildly, and the milled wood also varies in final dimensions depending on moisture content.
Their comment made me almost consider posting an emoji on Lemmy.
The singular is emojus.
Dammit I had to look it up. It's sheep, sheep.
Hoist on my own petard I was
Factually incorrect; the board is 2 inches by 4 inches (or whatever the marked dimension is) when rough sawn. After kiln drying and milling, it will be 1.5" thick and 3.5" wide. It still took 2 by 4 inches of the tree to make so that's what you pay for.
Do I get the sawdust in a bag with it?
The two-by-fours at your local home center are not 2 inches thick or 4 inches wide...not anymore at least. They spent several weeks at that size though. The sawmill cut them to that size to stack and kiln dry, and then when removed from the kiln they are then milled straight and square. Used to be they would sell the rough stock to carpenters who would do the milling themselves, but then they figured out that the railroads were charging them a fortune to ship a lot of wood that was going to be ground to sawdust anyway, so they started milling the boards before shipment. Same amount of construction lumber arrives at the construction site and it took less fuel for the locomotive to deliver it.
Lol. Trying to find lumber that's straight and square is a pipe dream these days.
Lumber is weird because it has been industry standard to lie about dimensions since before the US existed so it’s just kinda a thing they get to do
It's not exactly a lie, just a standard. Nominal board sizes were based on the unfinished lumber size. Another 1/4 inch is taken off each side to get a smooth surface that makes it easier to work with.
Here's an old image (reddit warning)
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F6Oy1DmXVFs0lyKxq9OmjaI-2gsPj8QO6joLlY1rB7m4.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D4fa73a2eaf8d96d4de26378be1ba9c404b210685
that shows the rough cuts of boards from a log. When they look at a log, they determine how many of each size they can get from it, and at that point, a 2x4 is 2 inches by 4 inches.
Why does the consumer need to know the dimensions at harvest when it's been processed multiple times?
That's like calling an 4oz can of evaporated milk a gallon because it came from a gallon of milk before processing (I have no clue on the ratio)
I it’s like calling a quarter pounder a quarter pounder. You are not getting a quarter bound of burger after cooking.
I agree with this. Use whatever system you need or want internally, but there's no reason to force whatever archaic or industry system onto a consumer. Logcutters also use a 1"=1/4 system and that is how they sell wood. A piece of wood that is 2" thick is sold as 8/4. Not 2". I get that they have their system but it seems dickish to force the consumer to use that system. There could be a good argument for it, but I've not heard one beyond "what, can't you do math?"
It’s like a 1/4lb paddy being a different weight before and after cooking. They can’t tell you the final weight, since it’s always going to be different. Same with wood.
The woods final actual dimensions can vary, so they tell you its original size.
A 2x10 can be anywhere from 9-3/8thick down do 8-3/4 depending on how it dries.
I get that. But this is for kiln dried wood. And this particular issue I'm bitching about isn't about net loss. It's selling wood using an internally useful measuring system instead of how the consumer would actually think about it. It's adding needless complexity, in my mind, when there's enough factors to consider.
The consumer (people who work with lumber) knows how the system works. You don’t, because you don’t work with lumber.
If the boards were precisely measured in mm and binned accordingly, it would help no one because all construction techniques developed for use with lumber account for dimensional inaccuracy.
Building and working with lumber is different than working with manufactured materials like plywood or whatever.
What? The final dimensions of kiln dried wood can still vary. If they say 1-1/2 and you grab one that’s 1-3/8 you get a post like this.
So you say the original size, no one needs to do any math (what complexity are you referring to here?) since the final dimensions will always be different once acclimated at the site they will be used.
They don't, but every plan and instruction going back a looong time refers to things that way.
Essentially, where they make the wood calls it a 2x4. So the places that process the wood calls it a 2x4, and so on.
The kilning and planing process used to be much less regular, so if you used actual, you couldn't buy four 1.5x3.5s, you'd get a 1.6x3.4, a 1.3x3.9, and so on.
The only consistent way to refer to it was the original sawmill size, and people who built things knew you had to measure the actual size of each piece of wood, or just accept the slop.
We got better at planing and kilning, and eventually the actual size was standardized. We still had all those plans and bills of material referring to things by their nominal name, to say nothing of the actual builders and engineers who were both used to the nominal measurements and didn't think it was necessary to change. So stores kept selling things by the name people expected when they were looking for products.
Most stores now label in both nominal and actual to accommodate for people who don't know this, since buying lumber and building things isn't as regular occurrence for a lot of people as it once was.
Not entirely true. I lived in a house that was just over a century old. The framing was exactly what it said it was, a 2x4 was 2” by 4”. Same for all the structure. These were mill cut, but still pretty clean. It was WW2-ish and after that we started to get planed lumber that gave us 1.5x3.5. It wasn’t even until probably the early part of the 1900s that lumber started to become “dimensional”, as in the standard sizes we know of today.
As if american measurements have ever made sense. Look up how they measure screws or wires and despair.
And they all had onions on their belts as was the style at the time.
Five bees for a nickel.
Expect for the .410 gauge. That one is a caliber, because reasons
It's a wonder they manage to build anything. They have pocket calculators dedicated to the building industry. It's surreal.
Not everyone
Some people are gods when it comes to metal math
🤘🏻
every house I've lived in has had something fucked up in it. Even if you have one guy doing everything correct, you have 20 other contractors coming in that can't do basic addition and subtraction, let alone fractions.
Part of that is that you need to work hard to find good people who do good work.
The other issue is that all the skilled works are either old or dead. The young guys aren't the same type.
How do they measure despair?
The European wire gauge system makes no sense. There I said it. I don't need to know the O.D. of the wire, I need to know the amp rating. The O.D. only becomes an issue for bending radius and there is a chart for that as well. Nothing is stopping some a**hole from making a wire almost completely out of plastic that has the O.D. of a typical 14AWG but can't carry any serious amount of current under the European system. Under the AWG you always know what the current capacity is.
And while we are at it, you might as well standardize your wire sizes based on copper. You are never going to use anything except copper. So your units should reflect the material. I am building a chemical skid, that has nothing to do with the distance between the equator to the north pole.
Also when is the last time you were running wires that you needed a mm of precision? Meanwhile a fraction of an amp really does matter. So should not the thing that does matter be reflected in the product?
European wire gauge is not the outer diameter. It is the cross section of the conductor inside the wire in mm^2. It is the same system AWG uses (they are directly correlated) with the added benefit that the numbers make sense (10mm^2/AWG8 wire has 4x the cross section of 2.5mm^2/AWG14 wire, so a quarter of the resistance of the thicker wire and thus roughly double the current capacity).
The convention is 2" before milling. Milling takes off 1/4"on each side, so the result is 1.5".
They were when the name was made, but due to changes in the manufacturing process, they aren't anymore. The name stuck, though.
https://www.popsci.com/two-by-four-lumber-measurements-explained/
So they can measure precisely, after all
Ans yet this piece is 1.28
It's due to the milling to square it.
You can get rough cut 2x4 or 2x2 or anything that are actually that size but by the time you trim and square it you will end up at the measurements sold in big box stores
Edit: I mean the size they used to be in store, not OPs version :(
I think this commenter is trying to say that the nominal size of a 2x2 is 2" by 2" (and it looks like they typo'd nominal to "normal")
The actual size of a 2x2 is 1.5" by 1.5", and OP incorrectly calls these dimensions nominal
It's weird because it's the size of lumber BEFORE smoothing the edges. Manufacturers take this inch a mile and the 2x4 (as well as all other dimensional lumber) has gotten smaller and smaller.
It was done for largely sensible reasons.
https://youtu.be/WaJFudED5FQ?si=7j005FmfJVr_JQL_
In short, a 2x4 was originally 2x4 inches, full stop, but it was found that this size wasn't necessary for the strength being applied to them in construction. We were wasting lumber for no reason. They went through a few cycles of sizing down as the actual needed strength was understood better. The naming convention stuck, though.
No.
https://www.lowes.com/n/how-to/nominal-actual-lumber-sizes