"I'm just following orders".
Except nothing bad would happen to you if you didn't.

"Sometimes I think the world would be better off without me. That's why I have to keep living."

No.

I can't. I'm almost 50, and back then I deliberately picked a major that would lead to a career with a neutral or good impact. I make half the money I could have made, I enjoy my job, and I'm not part of the problem (well, or only as much as we have to, living under capitalism.)

People will literally do anything for money.

I have a friend who worked relatively high in big tobacco. He rationalized that his job is going to exist no matter what, and that if he takes it, he will be able to benefit and do something about it. I don't know what he meant by doing something, but it didn't seem to eat at him. But either way he only worked there for about 2 years before getting recruited somewhere else

I work in IT. Some days are better than others. Framing seems to be key to keeping my psyche intact.

I constantly wrestle with the environmental impact of this field. More so now than ever. Everything that goes into consumer and professional electronics generates a lot of waste, and as a professional, I've had my hands on more systems than the average home user.

I also do not work at any FANG company, nor for anyone in surveillance like Palantir or Flock. Besides, I don't get invited to those parties.

Everyone in IT has contributed to both negative social and environmental impacts in some way. Some, much more than others. AI has thrown gasoline on the fire, but we still have the same problems as before: pointless commutes, e-waste, planned obsolescence, power-hungry software, enriching the rich, and so on.

Meanwhile, (without doxxing myself) I work at a company that helps their customers do good things.

I think that's where I keep my conscience clear for the most part: I've made decisions that place me in a relatively better place, with some sense of karmic balance that tips towards better than it is bad. Telling oneself "it could be worse" certainly seems fragile - and it is - but it is what it is.

I'll add that, in a capitalist system, even the concept of employment is coercive and not 100% voluntary. Also, the way companies proceed in this environment exploits the built-in demand for employment, while exploiting and extracting all kinds of things, both real and virtual. IMO, this puts the most (if not all) of economy on trial for ethical concerns, so we're only left "how (non)ethical is your workplace?"

Great question the answer is pretty much no.

Either you live with the guilt or you change your moral framework to make it not bad.

I left my industry because it made me question my morals daily. It's not worth the money

Not me at least. After looking for a job for 9 months I saw one at Palantir that fit me exactly. Just considering applying made me feel dirty af.

"There is no ethical consumption under Capitalism" is a useful parallel concept. One can consume at least more ethically by buying in solidarity with, eg, Fairtrade sellers, local sellers, co-ops, or maybe living a vegan lifestyle.

Not to be confused with finding an ethical form of capitalism. It doesn't exist. Any system designed to maximize profit will put any other goals (like human rights) secondary.

I think working in this society is similar. I can choose the more ethical option from the limited options available to me and work to make my life and the lives of people around me better. But I can't find or create a system that is ethical. Even that co-op referenced above probably has suppliers who are less ethical, or they may have to rent from a profit-driven landlord.

I try to focus on small improvements over my baseline rather than thinking anything short of immediate perfection is a failure.

I can't. One of my job requirements is that I need to work someplace I think is at least neutral, or is good. So far it's only been neutral and I am ok with that.

I do think some people can be a force for good in a bad place but I am not strong enough to do that.

Edit to add an example - I heard a story about a guy working in corrections - a prison warden - who was working to change the system from punitive to remedial, and had reduced recidivism by a huge amount, like it's 5%, compared to 50% in most of the nation. I think he is a good person in an evil industry (the American prison industry). Randy Liberty. Not kidding, that is his real name.

If murderers can feel no remorse for violently ending people's lives, corporate employees can certainly feel clean. Given the old 'there is no ethical consumption' there's arguably no one who should feel clean but most people think they are, on a basic level, good.

Thr unsavory businesses are paying a premium for being unsavory. There are SOME people who will not work there, which reduces the size of the labor pool and drives prices up. There are others who can be bought, for a price, and that also drives prices up.

Industries with neutral or beneficial impacts on society do have this pressure, so the wages are lower. Simple supply and demand.

You should read up on how the nazi's operated the most succesful industrial size operation for genocide while most of the people tried hard not to notice.

This is where I believe Karl Marx’s concept of alienation becomes more of a blessing than anything else. Marx argued, broadly speaking, that under capitalism, workers are doomed to feel disconnected (alienated) from the work they do. I think this disconnection works wonders in the kinds of jobs where what you do has negative consequences. Employees can pull a Nuremberg: “I’m just following orders,” and that way, even though they’re technically helping to create more harm in the world, from their point of view, they were just doing their job. Surviving, like all of us.

It is a clear conscience achieved through self-emptying.

(There’s also the case of people who honestly enjoy causing harm in the world, but that’s a separate issue.)

Whatever you do, you're going to be a part of the system.

Even if you become a civil service firefighter you're going to be driving a gas vehicle and working to help preserve capitalism.

Get the best paying job you can, and protect your family first.

Unless you want to become a full time revolutionary.

I think so. If you have no other choice and have to provide for your family. I can't think of a scenario where you don't have another choice, though.

There is rarely a complete agreement on what is "negative impact".

I find it noble to go against your own best interest for the greater good, but I don't expect it and don't blame anyone for not doing it when it would seriously impact their ability to live life if they did.

I still expect morality though. There's balance and proportion for everything.

You can't solve systems by focusing on individuals.

None of us a free moral agents. We're surrounded by systems of family, culture, and law that compel and coerce us. And all of that is built in to the signifiers "employment" and "labor". It's incoherent to slice off a traunch of all these interconnected systems, strip it of all context, and pretend it's a free moral choice.

Changing systems requires collective action. Individuals are weak and the Western obsession with individualism is no coincidence.

In good faith? No, I don’t think so. But I have a friend who worked at Facebook with the specific intent of dealing damage by delaying or stopping projects and generally slowing things down. It was a drop in the bucket, but she lasted 4 or 5 years before they realized she was adding literally nothing of value.

Here's how I see it: the more you contribute to the economy, the more harm you are doing. Therefore the most ethical thing is to organize your life in a way that minimizes your participation, and spend more of your time and energy doing things unrelated to earning or spending money.

Can they? Probably. Should they? Definitely not.

You're supposed to feel at the very least uncomfortable with it if your involvement/impact is minimal. And you should carry that guilt for as long as you're there since the least you can do is feel bad about it. And ofc, once you don't, you've lost your moral north and you become one more of them... Maybe try to steal a little or even sabotage things discreetly?

I have foundthat its pretty hard to find a job that doesnt have some form of ethical concern, whether its animal welfare and factory fsrming, the single use plastic crisis, exploitation of immigrants, perpetuating and expanding the use of fossil fuels, polluting in other ways etc... in fact its usually a combo of many of these.

Like a pharma company that produces a billion kilos of plastic waste every month, but on earth day its all about the workers carrying a fucking jar all week to measure their personal garbage production and see how they can reduce it!

I’m gonna be real with it. As long as the money is good I don’t really care about negativity affecting others / planet / future. 🤷‍♂️

It’s a dog eat dog world. My survival or ability to survive supersedes my care of others. As long as I can pay for the roof over my head and food I’m my stomach, other people don’t matter to me.

The world is complex and the vast vast majority of people in the world are wonderful humans. The closest thing we have to super villains are people like Martin Shkreli, Jeffrey Epstein, Mark Zuckerberg, etc. and those kinds of folks only make up 0.01% of the world's population. If someone's actions appear to be evil then it's far more likely that you just don't understand their perspective. And you don't have to agree with someone's perspective to understand their perspective. For example, maybe someone is working for a defence contractor designing new missiles because they were personally affected by a terrorist attack. I can understand that perspective while also believing that better missiles won't reduce terrorism. I'm not excusing bad behaviour, I'm explaining why other people might not see their actions as bad behaviour and will have a clear conscience.

I always found the ethical classes at uni a bit farcical, I understand blue sky thinking and aiming for ideals but the business practices of unis and the focus on hitting a tickbox hypocritical. I’d like to say you do have a choice over your upcoming career but that’s a privatised response. I was raised as a critical thinker who continually asks why, it puts a target on my back at work, but I’ll never stop, and I’ll always advocate for people left behind. Learning to use debate and influence may open routes in decision making when it comes to work and give you the choice of bad/less bad.

You can still make a career in some industries, and get a reasonable wage, healthcare for example. Go with the acceptance you are helping at a small scale. Fulfilment and wage are different drivers, and it’s your right to chop/change at any time.