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[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 31 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

The problem: our desire for convenience

Bring on the downvotes, but: When it comes to tools like computers, convenience is synonymous with productivity. People aren't unreasonably demanding to have their hands held, they want to get stuff done. We need to stop acting like ~~convenience~~ productivity is just one of many concerns. It is the primary concern.

Freedom is nice but to most people it's only important if it helps us do the things we want to do.

[-] lefaucet@slrpnk.net 8 points 6 days ago

I find dealing with Micros~1 a giant pain in the ass. It's always getting in the way of productivity with pointless rearranging of menus all the time, constantly trying to get me to use One Drive, shoving AI into every corner of everything.

I'm trying to make a spreadsheet to figure out and share budgets, instead I'm spending my time hunting for that menu that disappeared and figuring out how to disable copilot because I'm legally not allowed to share client data with third parties.

[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago

This an incredibly tech-brained answer. "Sure, lots of OSS is difficult to install, breaks frequently, and lacks key features, but did you know Microsoft sometimes moves a menu item?"

I love OSS and I want it to succeed but "an item moved" isn't in the same ballpark as the barriers to OSS adoption.

[-] lefaucet@slrpnk.net 2 points 5 days ago

Lacks key features? Like collecting telemetry data? A subscription model? Not for me.

And talk about shit failing our IT department spends way more time fixing MS bullshit than maintaining Linux machines. We use Fedora at the office and that is extremely stable and very secure.

When IT has to fix a Linux machine it"s because of an actual hardware failure

[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Over 1 billion people use Microsoft products, but let's all listen to @lefaucet@slrpnk.net 's anecdote about his IT dept. I genuinely believe your anecdote, but it's irrelevant. And until OSS evangelists (of which I am one!) realize that other people exist and have different preferences and experiences, MS will keep winning.

[-] lefaucet@slrpnk.net 1 points 4 days ago

Not relevant? Hah! Found the M$ bot I guess

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

This is probably the stupidest hill to die in I have ever seen. Of all the things to defend MS for you try to justify their destruction of the pull down menu!?

They broke 30+ years of standard GUI just to keep breaking and changing their stupid ass ribbon bar.

I don't really care for Macs but god damn does their universal PDM system work great.

The amount of times I have had to click through and memorize their dumb as fuck ribbon bar just to have them change it again the next version is ridiculous.

[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

I started the name calling by saying "tech brained" so I apologize and I'll ease off on that.

With that said, I have to strongly disagree with you. I use MS Office, LibreOffice, and Google Docs regularly, and IMO the ribbon was a huge improvement for word processors and spreadsheets over traditional drop-down menus. Drop-Down menus have their place but for document editing they are not ideal.

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

You are going to die on that hill. You sir have some serious screws loose and I will never take anything you say seriously again.

[-] Tehhund@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago

Oh no, some crank who can't understand that other people have preferences won't take me seriously. This is a major loss. I am so owned. This definitely isn't emblematic of the problem with the OSS community.

[-] Doomsider@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

You also act like an idiot. Now you are a victim as well. The big bad OSS community!? Do you even listen to the shit that is pouring out of your mouth.

[-] tomkatt@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

Micros~1

I see what you did there. 😆

[-] Zink@programming.dev 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Yes, exactly that! That convenience == productivity connection is exactly why I am a Linux Mint fan!

Convenience has value, so a lot of people will give their "free" information, attention, and control to commercial entities in exchange for it. Enshittification ensues and many of us are conditioned to beware of things that are simple to use because it REALLY just means you've been locked out of 95% of the options.

When a good FOSS project can bring convenience and productivity to more people around the world with NO strings attached, that is an incredibly good thing. It's like, humanity actually working together just for the sake of the greater good, but doing it on the internet because governments can suck at it.

Damn, I need to find a good open source project to help out this winter when I'm forced to stop my oudoor "engineer turned farmer" hobbies for the season.

Edit: probably something Jellyfin related. Can't believe I forgot to mention that!

[-] sunbeam60@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 days ago

In addition to that, with great respect to the hard working developers on LibreOffice, at least some of what seems like “unnecessary complexity” in Microsoft’s format is most likely just requirements LibreOffice isn’t solving or haven’t even encountered yet. You don’t get to Office’s size without having to deal with the most insane batshit crazy backcompat or compatibility issues.

[-] Noja@sopuli.xyz 5 points 6 days ago

They are intentionally obfuscating their file formats. It has nothing to do with complexity or "backwards compatibility" Microsoft has a LONG history of stuff like this.

[-] sunbeam60@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

That may be but without sources that say “let’s make the format more obscure” this is just opinion. Your opinion, OpenOffice opinion, IBM opinion etc.

Look for example at the 1904 dating system that Microsoft still has to support. Real customers still use this shit.

I’m not saying Microsoft has always exhibited good behaviour. But their crappy approach tends to be on the go to market side.

Office still has to support a leap year bug to allow banks to run their crappy Lotus based record keeping. Lotus for Darwin’s sake!! There is so much history in these files and what office has to do with them.

[-] UltraMagnus@startrek.website 5 points 6 days ago

No, what you say makes sense, and I think it's part of the reason why linux usage (as a daily driver) is starting to increase now versus 20 years ago. It's just easier to install and use linux distros nowadays.

And most folks who want office for free are going to go with google docs, for the convenience factor.

[-] Corelli_III@midwest.social 32 points 6 days ago

Not sure why this author is spreading "paid software is convenient and just works" rhetoric. Simply isn't the case. You just get addicted to trying to solve your problems with money.

[-] hansolo@lemmy.today 7 points 6 days ago

Right?! That's how this article ends?! "Sorry, but people are lazy, so, uh....Microsoft just wins I guess."

[-] PM_ME_YOUR_BOOBIES@lemmy.world 10 points 6 days ago

The "windows just works" claim is stupid. Especially the statement the author makes on how you just double click an icon and it just works everytime and if ever there is an issue, someone else will eventually fix it.

[-] dance_ninja@lemmy.world 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

If the XML standard is overly complex, does that mean it'll be a bigger pain for MS employees to maintain? Sounds like cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

[-] CriticalMiss@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

Iirc the openXML standard was open sourced due to some anti trust stuff brewing. They then expanded on the standard with proprietary addons that give LibreOffice/Google Docs trouble.

[-] Unyieldingly@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago

microsoft is a dirty bastard

[-] Simulation6@sopuli.xyz 3 points 6 days ago

I mean, they could just really suck at writing good software. Isn't some sort of rule of thumb law to never attribute to malicious intent what can just as easily be explained by stupidity?

[-] EnsignWashout@startrek.website 2 points 5 days ago

There is such a law, but many of us feel that Microsoft has proven malice a few times, when it comes to open standards.

Disappointing Fox news version of Windows' take of something somebody at Libre once said about Windows' domination of markets.

This read like basics. Was hoping for more info on how unusable XML was fot LibreOffice or if it wasn't (unusable to OSS versions). Obviously, OSS is better for enough reasons that a few in the EU are switching government computers from Windows to Linux.

Yes, corporate & proprietary schtick is lame & crippling. Old news. Guess it needs to be yelled until we research start taking about (marketing) FOSS Solutions.

[-] Shanmugha@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

There are people for whom this is news? Cheesus chroist

[-] Drusenija@aussie.zone 196 points 1 week ago

The comment about convenience trumping almost everything else reminded me of this old post (wasn't originally on The Urban Dictionary but they have it now under the definition of Linux).

If Operating Systems Ran The Airlines

When you board the plane, you are given a seat, four bolts, a wrench and a copy of the seat-HOWTO.html. Once settled, the fully adjustable seat is very comfortable, the plane leaves and arrives on time without a single problem, the in-flight meal is wonderful. You try to tell customers of the other airlines about the great trip, but all they can say is, "You had to do what with the seat?"

[-] palordrolap@fedia.io 77 points 1 week ago

The irony here, I think, is that many people will have actually put together the chair they use to sit in front of their computer.

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[-] MadMadBunny@lemmy.ca 49 points 1 week ago

That’s highlighting perfectly the real problem: too many people can’t assemble basic IKEA furniture properly even with clear, logical, fool-proof instructions.

It’s not given to everyone.

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[-] squirrel 153 points 1 week ago

I remember when Microsoft first attempted to prevent the standardisation of Open Document Format (used by LibreOffice and others) and then bullied its way into getting approval for own OOXML standard. Already back then, supporters of FOSS warned that Microsoft would use the overly complicated OOXML to maintain its stranglehold on users of Office-like software.:

Whenever applicable and possible, standards should build upon previous standardisation efforts and not depend on proprietary, vendor-specific technologies. Albeit, MS-OOXML neglects various standards and uses its own vendor-specific formats instead. This puts a substantial burden on all vendors to fully implement MS-OOXML. It seems questionable how any third party could ever implement them equally well, especially when a standard comes with 6000 pages of specifications without serving its minimalistic purpose.

[-] loutr@sh.itjust.works 76 points 1 week ago

Yeah, the issue is not "Microsoft's usage of the XML format". The issue is that they blatantly bought their format's standardization, and then intentionally released an implementation that substantially deviated from the specs, making sure that MSO was the only "compatible" implementation.

[-] homesweethomeMrL@lemmy.world 107 points 1 week ago

Shit, I've been right about microsoft for thirty-plus years and it doesn't make a damned bit of difference.

They are. A. MONOPOLY. They have never "fought fair", and it wouldn't ever occur to them to do so. Their heart is all BOGU.

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[-] communism@lemmy.ml 67 points 1 week ago

I think the point about convenience is more about familiarity than Windows being inherently easier. Speaking as someone who switched from Linux to Windows previously, I found the change very difficult as a lot of the FOSS software I was using didn't have Windows versions. I had a nightmare trying to read one of my LUKS-encrypted drives on Windows. I was practically using WSL for everything. That's not that Windows is inherently harder than Linux; it's just that I was used to Linux and the FOSS ecosystem, just as some are used to Windows and their proprietary ecosystem.

If your hardware isn't working properly, you have to find drivers that run on Linux; if the developer never made Linux-compatible drivers, you have to figure something else out.

Most drivers come pre-installed with the Linux kernel or your distro—I never had to manually install any drivers for my current hardware. Compared to Windows where you will have to go out of your way to install graphics drivers for NVIDIA or AMD depending on your graphics card, if you want to make the most out of your card's capabilities.

Installers made for Windows don't need any special TLC; you double-click them and they work.

See, I think if you've used Linux for any length of time you'd quickly find the system of package managers way easier than the system of having to hunt down an .exe on the internet, guess whether or not it's a legit copy or if it's malware, and manually manage updates for all the different software you have installed.

I agree that people stay on Windows out of convenience, but it's not convenience as in Windows is inherently easier, but it's convenience as in you're used to the way things work on Windows. Because in my perspective, things do "just work" on Linux, and that's because I'm used to the way things work here.

[-] kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 6 days ago

My old mother, who is completely disinterested in technology, has used a Linux desktop for a decade now without major issues.

If you aren't a power user the differences between it and Windows are minor. You have windows, icons, menu bars, x closes the application, the box makes it big, right-click to open a menu, left-click to select, it's all the same stuff. Besides, most of your time is spend in a browser anyway.

Yeah things break some times, but no more than in Windows. Being on a very default Ubuntu installation she can just search for her problems online and blindly run some random console command that probably fixes it, just like on Windows.

Hardware is easier because drivers are generally just magically there. Software is easier because it's mostly in a repository which automatically installs dependencies and updates and doesn't come with malware.

By far the biggest problem has been documents and executables that can only be opened in Windows. Mostly PDF forms (fuck you Adobe).

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[-] TheHobbyist@lemmy.zip 64 points 1 week ago

I don't buy the argument that windows just works or that it's somehow better or more stable. The reality is we all have grown to learn about computers specifically using windows and it's been a steep learning curve. We have gotten familiar with its specificities and its sporadic misbehavior and accepted that as the norm. And people prefer what they are used to even if it's suboptimal because they would rather not learn something else from scratch, even if in the long run it could be better.

Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn't.

[-] EnsignWashout@startrek.website 3 points 5 days ago

Put any person who has zero computer experience in front of a windows computer or Linux computer and I doubt they would say the windows computer just works and the Linux one doesn't.

I did this experiment on my own kids. They find Linux more usable, and find it hard to believe people tolerate Windows.

There's also some indoctrination involved.

But they have access to both, and they prefer Linux. I think that the "Windows is genuinely easier" argument doesn't hold any water anymore.

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[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 48 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Anyone who thinks this is new, please read this, this and this.

And there's also this. It's a topic since shortly after the standardization of the Open Document Format 2006. MS then feared to lose whole governments as customers, so they (pseudo)standardized their own format, with a whole bunch of traps (in the format) and abuses of market power.

[-] Saleh@feddit.org 45 points 1 week ago

The thing with "just works" in monopolies is that it eventually stops working. I already have terrible excel bugs all the time on my work computer. Left clicking a cell sometimes just selects half a dozen adjancent cells. You vlick something and all of a sudden the rendering just goes completely haywire... You have two larger tables open and it just crashes...

Things will only get worse from this, until the global economy will loose trillions to being stuck with Microsoft.

[-] pycorax@sh.itjust.works 1 points 6 days ago

You're right but at the end of the day, the average person is content with having their stuff just work for now and that's a reasonable expectation isn't it? If it ain't broke, people aren't going to go out of their way to protect themselves from a what-if that they may feel is going to maybe mildly inconvenience them when it happens regardless of what it actually is, since they may be ignorant of the true state of how things might be.

And in the end, some are just gonna accept that inconvenience from stuff not working completely rather than switch. People have been saying to switch away from Chrome for years and now even with ad-blocking being nerfed, people are still on it.

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[-] Taalnazi@lemmy.world 36 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Moved to LibreOffice. No regrets. Thank you, Microsoft!

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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2025
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