912
submitted 1 week ago by Catoblepas to c/onehundredninetysix
(page 3) 40 comments
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[-] MudMan@fedia.io 111 points 1 week ago

I know exactly how every beat of this conversation is going to go, but I'm still here for it.

I've been hearing how games are too focused on graphics since the late 1980s.

That time you remember games being all about fun? People then were complaining about how chasing visuals over gameplay was ruining games.

I know because I was there and I was complaining.

Graphics are fun and cool. I like graphics.

[-] BodilessGaze@sh.itjust.works 45 points 1 week ago

It all started going downhill when Nethack added color support in 1989: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/NetHack_3.0.4#Significant_changes

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[-] Catoblepas 14 points 1 week ago

Graphics are cool! I just also think the story, mechanics, and game difficulty balance should have an equal amount of consideration, which seems poorly lacking in a lot of modern AAA games. A mile wide and an inch deep is a saying for a reason.

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 1 week ago

I've stopped acknowledging the term AAA because I'm increasingly convinced nobody knows what they mean when they use it beyond "games that look expensive and I don't like".

I also don't think there's that many developers that don't give "story, mechanics and game difficulty balance" an equal amount of consideration, mostly because those things are typically handled by entirely different people in any production that is bigger than a skeleton crew. It's not like designers in big studios are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the rendering engineers to finish the peach fuzz on people's cheeks.

The way people perceive opportunity cost in collaborative media is always weird to me.

[-] luciole@beehaw.org 3 points 6 days ago

Hey, love your take on this. Can you tell us more on what is "opportunity cost in collaborative media" and how it relates to games? I don’t understand these words, and I’d rather get the explanation from a human being :3

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[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago

For me, I shy away from AAA games in general because the bigger the studio and higher the budget, the greater chance that there's MBAs involved that will push design decisions that favour making more money over making a good game.

I think some people correlate that with graphics, maybe because the diminishing returns on effort put into graphics means those amazing graphics could have come at the cost of time spent on the gameplay elements, though I don't personally think a great game and great graphics are mutually exclusive.

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 6 days ago

This view on things where a guy in a suit is telling a bunch of passionate artists how to do their day to day jobs is entirely separate from reality.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of big, merecenary operations out there, but this is a) not how those play out, and b) very easy to sus out without needing to have a roll call of the studio.

Case in point, Baldur's Gate 3, which people keep weirdly excluding from "AAA" was made by a large team that balooned into a huge team during the course of development. That never seemed a budget, size or graphics problem to me. Or about what degree people in the studio happen to have, for that matter.

If you don't want to play hyper compulsive live services built around a monetization strategy that is perfectly legitimate. Gaming is very broad and not everybody needs to like everything. It's just the categorizations people use to reference things they supposedly dislike that seem weird to me.

[-] Catoblepas 2 points 6 days ago

It's not like designers in big studios are just twiddling their thumbs waiting for the rendering engineers to finish the peach fuzz on people's cheeks.

Okay! I don’t think that either. I think they’re underpaid and overworked like virtually everyone in the games industry and unable to put out quality products because of arbitrary deadlines. That kind of thing is much more common with AAA games (which studios don’t seem to know how to define either, given that now they’re going on about AAAA and AAAAA games) than it is with indie games.

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 3 points 6 days ago

I'm gonna need some sourcing for that assertion, because man, there are no more underpaid and overworked developers in the gaming industry than indies living on a friend's garage, having two jobs and coding all-nighters on a passion project.

Crunch horror stories are real, but big "AAA" devs are more likely to have some type of overtime policy they can adhere to and a decent compensation package.

I'd argue about arbitrary deadlines, too, but it's a case by case basis there. In any case, both indies and larger devs are often working to the same type of deadline, that being "we're running out of money".

[-] Catoblepas 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Do you know people working in gaming or are you working in it yourself? Because “just ask for overtime and you’ll get it without any repercussions” absolutely doesn’t match the experience of anyone I know. Especially since people tend to jump from big studio to indie, not the other way around, for quality of life reasons.

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 6 days ago

People tend to jump from big studio to indie by way of either getting laid off or having a game they want to do that won't get greenlit in a big studio (mostly because very few people get to even bring up projects to a greenlight process in the first place).

Working for ages with next to no financial security on the off chance that you pull off a minor miracle and get an investor backing you or your own startup money back is hardly what I call "quality of life". Best case scenario you have the investment already lined up on your way out of a big dev, but that is getting harder these days.

On the other question, if I wanted to share my resume I would not post under a pseudonym, so apply your best judgement there.

I'll say this, though, if that counts for something. I am NOT in the US.

[-] Catoblepas 1 points 6 days ago

I wasn’t asking for personal information beyond whether or not you’re in or adjacent to the industry, or anything I hadn’t already shared myself, peace ✌️

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 1 points 6 days ago

Oh, I take no offense in asking, I just don't like disclosing even trivial stuff. Even stuff you can sort of reverse engineer from my post history. It's more habit than anything else at this point.

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[-] straightjorkin@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

Purists when an artform incorporates another artform: >:(

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago

I'm going to be annoying for a second, but I promise to try and make it worth it: It isn't about purism or even "fun", because not all art is meant to amuse. Art is allowed to be anything, and we should treat critique of art (including games) an an exploration of what the creator was trying to do, to what extent they succeeded and how, what it makes you think of, and possible meanings. Play is merely one aspect of a game's artistic content.

The entire subject of fun in terms of game design is, artistically speaking so nascent that there is hardly any history to that field of study. We've been making up for lost time in recent decades, but the entire concept of game theory is not even a century old.

So, that was probably annoying of me. But the point I'm here to make is that "fun vs graphics" isn't really the conversation we're trying to have.

One conversation we should have is the problem that exists with how games are funded and how those financial incentives can shape the creative side in a way that might hinder what's being done with the medium. Games aren't just art, they're big business, and the conversation is taking place within the context of the tech industry, geopolitical trends, and even monetary policy. Now that the industry is so large, it often feels like creators working with big budgets are becoming risk-averse and often greedy. When traditional artists seem overly risk-averse and driven by financial incentives, the art world turns on them in a big way. Look at Anish Kapoor and vantablack.

Another conversation to have is graphics in gaming within the larger computing industry. We're at the tail end of Moore's law and the GPU market seems like it's starting to turn away from gaming towards other perceived cash cows like LLMs and generative AI. So we should not expect graphics cards to continually get better forever, or even cheaper honestly. It's been the case for decades, but the situation is dynamic.

For a long time, it seems like there has been a bad combination of forces at play in gaming: the promise of endlessly increasing computing power, and lurching shifts in monetary policy that lead initially to massive tech speculation and then periods of focusing intensely on profitability.

I think it's reasonable to predict that we're going to see smaller development budgets in gaming, increased focus on well-optimized code, a shift away from the emphasis on realism in games, or a general collapse in the "big budget" gaming industry as some or all of these fail to materialize.

Meanwhile, indie gaming has been on a hit streak. That food chain has been thriving at lower trophic levels, and no wonder. They're taking more risks, being more generous, and reaching less highly than their larger peers. It's a winning formula under tight monetary policy and the overall larger context.

I've said far too much, sorry to drop this on you.

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[-] kruhmaster@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 week ago

laughs in Vampire Survivors

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 4 points 1 week ago

Love Vampire Survivors. Would be better without the Castlevania asset flippiness, but still love it.

But here's the thing, people mistake being able to make a good basic-looking game with not being able to make a good visuals-focused game.

I also love Cyberpunk, Indiana Jones, Expedition 33 and a bunch of other games that care about their visuals a LOT.

The only time this was valid was when the Sega Saturn tried to do rounded 3D objects. I swear taking a single step in “Shining the Holy Ark” took 5 seconds which wouldn’t have happened if everything had edges

[-] MudMan@fedia.io 2 points 1 week ago

I think Gouraud shading was pretty cheap back then.

I gotta say, I don't think we complained enough that gen about having every game look like a bad attempt at origami running at 15 fps.

Anybody complaining that modern games are too focused on visuals for not enough return needs to deeply rethink how we all collectively went from perfect 60fps Mega Man to whatever Mega Man Legends was.

I mean, people are still out there defending GoldenEye, and I must remind you that Doom had existed for years at that point.

And I have no problem with Doom et al I just thought Sega shouldn’t have attempted to make round objects at that tech level. It is the only generation that I felt this was the case.

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[-] A_Union_of_Kobolds@lemmy.world 46 points 1 week ago

Dwarf Fortress has graphics now! You don't have to install the Lazy Newb Pack! What a time to be alive

[-] Kaput@lemmy.world 17 points 1 week ago

I came to ask if I could still play dwarf fortress.. Now that the make it understandable to me

[-] Solely_a_Catt@programming.dev 14 points 1 week ago

You can still play the ascii-version :P

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[-] Ethalis@jlai.lu 20 points 1 week ago

And yet Clair Obscur Expedition 33 is both super fun and breathtakingly beautiful

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[-] RizzRustbolt@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

The only roguelike I play is Rogue.

You should check out Wazhack. Its surprisingly deep

[-] TootSweet@lemmy.world 9 points 1 week ago

I'm in the middle of my first playthrough of Morrowind right now. Maybe I should go find a mod that makes the graphics worse. Maybe one that limits the resolution to 480p and makes everything monochrome wireframe with a viewing distance of just two or three meters.

[-] Catoblepas 10 points 1 week ago

That wasn’t the original experience on Xbox? 😜

[-] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago

OG Xbox could barely run morrowwind. The load times were so long because the game had a memory leak or something and the Xbox had to be "rebooted" during the load screens sometimes.

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[-] RedSnt@feddit.dk 7 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

You really don't need much to make a good game:
example a
example b
example c
example d

[-] TootSweet@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago

example b

Officially created by KFC

I... wait... really?

No, really

Well oooookay then.

I mean, I guess this dating sim isn't any more weird than their TTRPG, "Feast of Legends".

[-] RedSnt@feddit.dk 6 points 1 week ago

The sonic one is also on the meme/marketing side.

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this post was submitted on 15 May 2025
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