I assume years of collectively crying about it online has made something as simple and natural like dating seem like this unachievable task.

Not sure if it’s just me, but I feel like young people are less capable than ever to socialise. I thought I was a social pariah, but I don’t have shit on some people out there.

Well when men keep hearing “don’t approach us”, we shouldn’t be shocked when men don’t approach people.

I keep saying this cause it's a take a lot of people gloss over. I haven't dated in a while because I'm too broke to add anything else to my budget, dive bars included. Dating takes time and money, and if I get more of either, I'm using it to better my situation before thinking about dating.

In a time where real wealth is dwindling for most young men, I can imagine I'm not alone on this.

Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.

Every time I see an article like this I think who fucking cares? Like what's going on with men? Its a generational and cultural thing its not men's fault. Dating sucks, people get rejected in ultra harsh ways, sometimes being filmed and then posted on social media for trying to ask someone out. If I was in the age range to be dating I wouldn't bother.

It's a complicated issue with a lot of layers. Like a depressing onion.

Men were told to stop approaching women for any reason in any situation. So we did.

Dating apps and websites have overinflated women's egos and absolutely obliterated most mens egos. The average looking guy with a job and some normal hobbies is going to get very few matches where as most women get hundreds a day regardless of their level of employment or having hobbies. This leads to women believing they can find the millionaire bachelor if they just hold out for longer when in reality they are not the women that the millionaire bachelor is going to pick.

Most women still expect men to be chivalrous and pay on the first date, but they have no actual intention of pursuing a relationship with that guy. Unfortunately some women have learned they can get a free meal and entertainment for an evening at no cost if they just say yes to dates they have no interest in. Most guys have been burned by that as some point.

A lot of women are still playing games. Saying no because they want the man to "chase" them or "fight" for them. Most guys have stopped entertaining that behavior whatsoever but I still see so many women doing it. As men we can't tell if that's what you want or if you actually mean it when you say no so the majority of us will immediately stop pursuing you if you decline us. I'm 33 and women are STILL doing this. I thought it would taper off as I got farther from high school aged girls but from my experience it has not gone down in any significant way.

There are a million other reasons and nuanced details but I am tired of typing.

Myself and most men I know around my age who all did very well in the dating scene when we were younger have just completely given up on dating now. We have zero interest in putting in the time, energy and money into something that yeilds nothing in return these days.

Like most things I think this will reach a breaking point and things will shift but I'm not sure when that will be or what will push things over the edge.

Honestly, I get it's a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that's still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were 'crimge' or 'gave the girl the ick' and it's a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it's enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn't going to happen.

45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person

I can't speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I'd rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking "Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?"

So many comments echoing "women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!"

I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that's the message you took. It wasn't "Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman" it was, "if you shoot your shot and she's not interested, move on and don't make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting." Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you're not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you're reducing women's feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.

The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.

18-25 in 2025 means 13-20 when COVID happened.

We're going to see the long term effects of people in that micro generation losing much of what the high school social scene represented, that low stakes junior league of forming new relationships, where meeting is easy, with lots of natural opportunities for free interaction, and making new connections is normal. Learning to flirt in that environment is a stepping stone towards being able to navigate the adult world, where people don't have your schedule planned out for you, and you won't naturally see the same people 100+ days out of the year, and have 50+ chances to shoot your shot when you're ready.

And yes, sure, the loss of third places and changing social dynamics and gender roles and the economy play a role, too, for pretty much everyone under 40. But it's worth pointing out that this specific age cohort has special challenges on top of the issues that everyone else is living, too.

Social changes have caused chaos. A lot of the "traditional" dating methods existed to give structure to finding a partner. Unfortunately, those structures got trashed by the general update to gender roles. While these changes are great in many ways, it left young people in limbo. It was eventually replaced with online dating, for many. Unfortunately, that, in turn has been trashed by corporate takeover.

You've also got the outlier problem. The problematic men and women make up a small proportion of the population, but do a disproportionate amount of dating. A lot of the complaints are aimed at the problematic groups. Unfortunately, they don't care. It's mostly the non-problematic people who get the wrong message.

reading this thread I'm glad I'm a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.

there's a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I'm scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.

i can't solve it. but I've been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it's hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.

I'm married to a tinder girl now so say what you want about that but for me, it was fear of further social ostracization. I always struggled to fit in, in grade school because I was asian in a sea of white kids. Some kids were literally afraid to touch the "chinese boy" (i was korean but try telling that to rabid white elementary and middle school kids looking for any reason to other anyone). I became a huge people pleaser and tried not to stick out for any reason. I had also seen how the "popular" kids treated any of the geeks who tried to shoot their shot and I didn't want to fuck up any of the social capital I thought I had. It obviously got better in late high school as kids grew up but the damage was done. I had a few girlfriends in high school and college but they mostly came after me or we kind of just found ourselves getting close so there wasn't any formal "asking out" type of stuff. Either way I probably blew a lot of romantic opportunities but it is what it is.

I got a boy due in June so hopefully I can instill the confidence in him that I didn't have.

A lot of people in this thread are talking about how much women suck because of X, Y, Z. But like... have you tried not dating shitty women? Or at least not getting so hung up on a woman who treats you poorly? Yeah, it sucks to be treated badly, but consider that you just dodged a bullet. You don’t need women like that in your life. Find a woman you actually connect with, someone you share interests with, not just someone you want to sleep with.

Two hard truths a lot of single men need to reckon with:

1: Most people are kind of shitty, and therefore, most women are kind of shitty. I could go on about how consumer culture and social media encourage toxic traits, but the fact of the matter is you should focus on not being a shitty person yourself, and you shouldn’t settle for shitty people either.

2: With number one in mind, you need to broaden your horizons regarding what kind of woman you’re attracted to. Porn and social media have rotted our brains when it comes to attraction. Maybe I’m just pervy, but honestly, I can find something attractive in just about everyone. 90% of people are at least a 7/10 if they put in some effort, and a 7/10 who you truly vibe with is better than a 10/10 who treats you like shit. And trust me, when you form a true romantic connection with someone, they become even more attractive in your eyes.

There are good, beautiful women out there, I know because I’m marrying one. We met online, and she’s one of the kindest and smartest people I’ve ever met, and I find her more beautiful than anyone else in the world. And I’m a fat, impoverished, autist. If I can do it, so can you.

For me personally, it's a combination of factors. A non zero number of my exes lost interest after a while and it damaged my ego pretty badly. Dating Apps are a string of getting ghosted with the occasional date that leads to me paying for drinks and dinner, only to get ghosted. I've always been a shy person and I can only handle so much failure before I don't want to play anymore. I missed out on the high school and college dating scenes and it shows. There is one common denominator in all of my dating failures and it's me.

I started dating my wife when we were both in high school so I'm lucky that I never had to try to start dating in my 20s. But when I was in high school asking out a girl was as simple as walking up and saying "do you want to go out with me?"

I asked out girls that I KNEW there was a 99% chance they'd say no, but I asked anyways. The worst they ever said was "no". Nobody ever laughed in my face or told all their friends or spread rumors about me, they just said no thank you and I moved on.

This was like 2009-2013 mind you; I think young people are a lot more cruel now than they were then.

Third places

I'm 41 now but I haven't gone on a date-date in 3 years or so. The TL;DR online dating is absolutely not worth participating in. Neither is speed dating, and people are isolating more and more.

I'm not wildly attractive but I'm not unattractive either. I'm probably like a 6 or a 7. I think I'm interesting and can hold a reasonable conversation. I'm intelligent. I've been told I'm funny (sometimes). I am a bit clumsy sometimes though. I've been in two long term (3+ years) relationships in my life but one of those relationships ended due to alcohol (we mutually sucked at the time), and the other due to financial reasons. Both hurt pretty deep when they ended and I didn't date for a couple years after either of those.

In the time that I wasn't feeling some form of loss from relationships that meant something, I tried online dating. I tried OkCupid, Bumble, PlentyOfFish, some bullshit regarding a bagel, Tinder, match.com, etc. I probably tried any of them that were active at the time. Not once did it ever amount to a relationship, in probably 15 years of using those sites off and on. I've unquestionably had more bad experiences than good. 9 out of 10 dates are bad. 1 ouf of 10 are ok. The worst time I recall was when a woman drugged me after our date. Another bad time I can recall, my date showed up on drugs or drunk or just incredibly stupid or something. She racked up a $110 bar tab during our 30 minute meet and greet and dipped out without saying anything at all or paying the bill. I was once catfished (is it catfishing when it's just straight up someone else's picture, or does it have to be your own picture doctored up / photoshopped to be considered catfishing?) by a co-worker on Bumble. I've been stood up for a first date at three or four times. I've been cancelled on an hour or two before a date at least 15 times.

The last time I had an online date, everything seemed to be going fine, we had a drink at the first bar, established that we seemingly got along, went on a walk around downtown, check out a show and then all of a sudden I'm being told about a sex kit that she purchased from a vending machine while I was in the bathroom that she wants to try out. I thought she was pretty cool before that. I wasn't 100% sure if I was attracted to her, but I knew we at least got along on a person-to-person level. Telling me about a sex kit like that on the first date was a "eh, hard pass" for me. Women have either been fully uninterested in me; or so interested in me that I find it repulsive.

Speed dating is also, completely shit; and it's a scam. The first time I tried speed dating, it was some website where you pick your city, your age range, and then what event you'd want to attend based on your other parameters. They take your money, and then send you an email a day before the event saying the event is cancelled because they couldn't get enough people, but you cannot have a refund either. Then you attempt to re-schedule and it gets cancelled a second time for the same reason, then a third. Finally - you attend one of these things in person, end up getting "3 matches" emailed to you, and then you attempt to make contact and never hear from anyone ever again.

I felt like a complete horses' ass when I attempted to do speed dating a second time 12 years later and had a very similar experience. This second time around though, I did a charge back on my credit card after the 3rd cancellation because "they couldn't get enough people to attend." Thanks for nothing Troy.

After soooo many bad experiences, and never having any success with what are the now conventional methods, and coming to the realization that I'm likely halfway dead now... I feel like I have a trauma response to the idea of dating at this point. I'd still like to be in a happy relationship, but even thinking about trying the methods I've tried in the past one more time causes me anxiety.

I'm introverted by nature, and as of 7 months ago, I live alone in a state, where I also work remotely from home and know no one. When I first got here, I tried a few events from Meetup.com thinking, "hey, maybe this is how 40-year-olds make friends," but didn't enjoy anything that I went to, other than the events where people sit in an audience quietly and watch someone else on stage. I found a really cool thing that I like attending where anyone is welcome to get up on stage and tell an 8 minute story about pretty much anything - fact or fiction. I really enjoy attending these, but it's no way to meet people. The epidemic in question is absolutely not just about dating. It's about making friends too.

I imagine I'm not alone in my experiences.

I think a lot of men are just satisfied staying home playing their video game of choice while wanking it or using online apps for hookups.

Dating is a lot of work.

Let me offer a scenario; two drunk people who wouldn't normally go near each other spend a night together. The morning comes, regret is in the air for both parties, which of these two people is most at risk?

The correct answer is: "the one who doesn't accuse the other on social media".

Just remember, no-one gave any indication of gender there. It's not really about gender at this point - it's the fact we've constructed a world where a casual encounter has the potential to become the prisoner's dilemma if it is regretted afterwards.

That's not a world where people take risks on a date, especially if physical intimacy is on the cards. To much risk!

Who are these "women" they mention? Some new human-like species?

Disclaimer: I'm not 18-25.

I have a ton of women friends (more than men ATM) and have solid evidence that I am a significantly attractive man. I'm also bi so my options are a tad more broad than average.

Even with this I can say that dating is unpleasant and I have never asked for one and barely do them (women are rarely bold enough to be the initiator). It feels like a socially awkward job interview where I have to spend money I don't have and I fucking hate job interviews.

Admittedly, I also am autistic, socially anxious, and sexually repressed (American sex culture sucks).