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But but but... (lemmy.world)
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[-] Donkter@lemmy.world 112 points 3 weeks ago

The absolute worst is them saying socialism is pessimistic because it thinks people can't do anything for themself and coddles them with a nanny state. Then turns around and says "you have to structure capitalism assuming every single person is a greedy sociopath hellbent on fucking over everyone else to make money."

[-] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 37 points 3 weeks ago

Ancaps/libertarians as well.

[-] PunnyName@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

And that the only acceptable form of socialism is charity. And like. FFS

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[-] LemmyGo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 94 points 3 weeks ago

I think it might have something to do with those "Christians" envisioning heaven as an implicit ethnostate.

Socialism seems ugly to them because it involves the people who seem ugly to them being cared for.

But they'd never say it out-loud; most can't even see that's what their twisted little hearts desire.

[-] sexy_peach@feddit.org 29 points 3 weeks ago

I think they just lack vision and don't actually want to change the real world, just dream of a better place

[-] morbidcactus@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

Seen this clip from some american fundie podcast that was... a choice.

This person was asked something like, if you could have world peace, but all governments become socialist, would you do it? They said no and fucking justified their answer with a partial quote from something like Deuteronomy 15:7-11, claiming that well the bible says there'll always be the poor so socialism is actually bad because of that, and a quick search to see if I could find it there's a lot of stuff echoing the same stuff, that socialism is unbiblical etc.

What the actual fuck is wrong with these people? I'm irreligious but was raised Christian, this is so vehemently counter to my understanding of Christian teachings (the flavour of which I was raised has atheist ministers so there's that), which was more or less, raise everyone up, accept everyone for who they are, help people, don't turn a blind eye to injustice and like just be decent to each other. Was this podcast prosperity doctrine shit or something else because yeah wow, it's honestly sinister to me.

[-] Zombiepirate@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago

I was raised as a fundamentalist, but I got out.

American evangelical fundamentalists firmly believe in heirarchy— children are under the authority of their mother, who is under the authority of her husband, who is under the authority of God.

They see any disruption of this heirarchy as an attack on their religion.

Taxes? You're usurping the man's authority to spend his money as he sees fit.

Women's liberation? You're usurping the man's authority over his wife.

Entitlements? You're usurping the man's authority to use his pocketbook as leverage over his family.

Immigration? You're usurping the man's authority by lowering his cultural relevance.

LGBTQ+ acceptance? You're usurping the man's authority by undermining the patriarchy.

You've probably noticed a pattern as to who is primarily driving these issues.

[-] prole 13 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

They begin with the conclusion (e.g. socialism bad), and then find whatever they can in their shitty book to justify it.

[-] iheartneopets@lemm.ee 9 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, just like everything else, they are cherry picking passages that support the conclusion they've already reached on their own

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[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 91 points 3 weeks ago

This actually makes sense, once you understand what their problem is with communism.

You see, they have no problem with all the benefits that communism offers... What bothers them is the idea that those benefits would be given to people who haven't earned it.

Heaven, to them, is a reward. Only the pure, the righteous, the faithful get to enjoy its benefits. Heaven only works for them if they imagine that they will be able to look down and see hell.

A heaven for everyone, with no walls, no gates, no pitiful outcasts scrabbling to get in... That's no heaven at all.

[-] miraclerandy@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

You’re not wrong about the reward being earned. That’s definitely the unspoken part of it.

When I grew up religious, the conversion was that communism was a bastardization of god’s plan, so it’s inherently evil. Basically, it cannot be as pure and perfect with men in charge so it will fail every time.

You’d think they’d want to try and be more like their god and his plan for their heaven but they just reject it.

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[-] seeigel@feddit.org 16 points 3 weeks ago
[-] ksigley@lemm.ee 7 points 3 weeks ago

Interesting read. Thank you.

[-] dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

Heaven only works for them if they imagine that they will be able to look down and see hell.

See, this is the part I can't get behind. An eternity of that disparity with even the smallest scrap of empathy would eventually be unending torment. Every day is just more "oh yeah, hell is a thing and I can't do anything about it..."

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[-] DonJefe@lemmy.world 8 points 3 weeks ago

If working all your life for a regime does not earn you the benefits of that regime, I don't know what will in their minds

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[-] the_q@lemm.ee 55 points 3 weeks ago

When I was fairly young my mom described Christian heaven. I remember struggling with the idea of not struggling and being happy all the time. Then she hit me with if someone you love doesn't make it to heaven you forget them. That's when the fracture began for me.

[-] Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee 20 points 3 weeks ago

Basically heaven is a mindfuck.

[-] the_q@lemm.ee 18 points 3 weeks ago

It really is. It's not even a pleasant thought experiment.

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[-] disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world 48 points 3 weeks ago

The most successful nations in terms of citizen happiness use mixed-economics. Nordic nations have the blueprint. We just need to use it.

[-] untorquer@lemmy.world 20 points 3 weeks ago

So complete justice system reform, cut the police force, strong wide reaching unions, and strong social welfare.

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[-] prunerye@slrpnk.net 43 points 3 weeks ago

To be fair, the heaven of the Bible is neither stateless nor classless. "The nations" are still present in Revelation 21 and 22, and inequality in heaven is a common theme in Jesus's parables.

[-] lugal@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 3 weeks ago

"The nations" is just fancy for "non Jews". Remember that the bible predates modern nation states by more than a millennium.

inequality in heaven is a common theme in Jesus's parables.

Is that so? I can think of the story with the lamps where it's about getting into the kingdom of god or the treasure in the field where it's about finding the kingdom of god. Or that the poor will inherit the kingdom of god while rich people cannot get into it. Nothing about inequality inside the kingdom of god.

You have to keep in mind that the kingdom of god isn't really heaven as we think of it even tho Matthew uses the wording kingdom of heaven (to avoid the word god as a good jew). We think of heaven as life after death but the kingdom of god is on earth when Jesus returns and the dead arise and he builds his kingdom here.

[-] prunerye@slrpnk.net 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

"Least"/"Greatest" in "the kingdom of heaven" is a construction that appears at least once off the top of my head, Matthew 5:19. I'm sure there are more. But also, Jesus is depicted as a literal monarch and heaven a kingdom like you said, so there's at least one extra class right there.

[-] tacobellhop@midwest.social 8 points 3 weeks ago

There’s also 11 classes of angels in a ladder system under Jesus. My boys Metatron and Enoch up top if I’m not mistaken.

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[-] confluence@lemmy.world 26 points 3 weeks ago

Fundies have a more two-class system in mind for Heaven: God-King and unquestionably loyal fans.

[-] SaharaMaleikuhm@feddit.org 15 points 3 weeks ago

So like Trump and MAGA. Figures

[-] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 25 points 3 weeks ago

Heaven is an autocratic police state though

[-] Zombiepirate@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

Yup. The common answer to "why does evil exist" is that humans have free will.

Therefore it follows that if there is no sin in heaven, there is also no free will.

[-] ploot 7 points 3 weeks ago

Ssshhh, you're not supposed to actually think it through!

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 25 points 3 weeks ago

I asked one “so when do I actually die?” and they couldn’t comprehend that I didn’t want to exist forever

[-] MrMobius@sh.itjust.works 21 points 3 weeks ago

Do we have to censor the word communism now?

[-] jasoman@lemmy.world 12 points 3 weeks ago

Self censor so hot right now!

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[-] kmaismith@lemm.ee 18 points 3 weeks ago

If i could take a moment to cite the opening to the lords prayer:

Our Father who art in heaven,

hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come.

Thy will be done

on earth as it is in heaven.

The ability to make one being a christian not by default be a socialist as well is a continuous theological labor for the capitalist

[-] bitjunkie@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago

I was going to upvote but you were right at 666 so I couldn't bring myself to

[-] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

There are plenty of Christians who specifically and deliberately oppose attempting to make life on earth more like heaven. They’re not being hypocrites for this, this is their belief system. To disagree with them is to wade into a theological debate, not just a political one.

[-] return2ozma@lemmy.world 24 points 3 weeks ago
[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 7 points 3 weeks ago
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[-] RedFrank24@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

What if heaven is just whatever you need heaven to be? Like, what if it's just a temporary state of affairs? You enter Heaven, and it is exactly what you need to be at peace with your death and your life before that. Then, when you're ready, after however much time you need, you can decide to move on and stop existing, or send your soul to be reincarnated.

[-] Charzard4261@programming.dev 8 points 3 weeks ago

This is similar to what Rick Riordan (author of Percy Jackson) suggests in one of his other works - that the afterlife is simply whatever you believe it to be. It's pretty comforting imo.

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[-] TheTechnician27@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago

Why are we censoring "communism"?

[-] stopdropandprole@lemmy.world 32 points 3 weeks ago

same reason people say "unalive" and "fuggen" and "child 🌽".... the Internet has become a place for self censoring idiot babies afraid of being algorithmically demonitized/banned

corporate monopolies of all popular platforms has kneecapped actual free speech by training entire generations to be afraid of violating terms of service, I guess

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[-] fahfahfahfah@lemmy.billiam.net 11 points 3 weeks ago

Well if we turned earth into heaven, then there would be no reason for anyone to convert, duh

[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

It's only "communism" if the equality goes to individuals outside of your group. If your group gets the benefits, well, that's because you're awesome and you deserve it; but fuck those other guys.

[-] Wanpieserino@lemm.ee 9 points 3 weeks ago

I don't have an issue with communism, but with communists.

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[-] talou@jlai.lu 8 points 3 weeks ago

Heaven is a post-capitalism utopia

[-] mrodri89@lemmy.zip 8 points 3 weeks ago

Can we just have tiny villages where we tell ghost stories and just all contribute to each other's well being?

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this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2025
1672 points (100.0% liked)

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