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this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
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Do you have any principles that you won't compromise on?
Do you know how a first past the post electoral system works? Or are you young and naive, thinking that politics isn't about compromise?
Seems like compromise is "the political party does whatever they want and you guarantee your undying loyalty to them with your vote". You speak of youth and naivety, but only an idiot would accept such a "deal". If our votes have power then we should wield it.
The fact that you think voting is an undying loyalty and not a simple strategic decision baffles me, and embodies the exact argument I keep seeing on here. You know how you wield the power of your vote? USE IT. Voting 3rd party is really dumb right now but in theory okay. Not voting simply means you don't care.
I don't think voting in general is undying loyalty, I think guaranteeing your vote to a party no matter what they do is undying loyalty. That's what they demand and expect because the other guy is worse, but if that's the strategy then they have no need to ever actually improve things because the other guy will always be worse.
Politics is absolutely about compromise, but Democrats never really compromise with progressives. The most we get is putting weed in the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, Yippee.
So that's a no then? About principles?
So you're saying that... I should abide by principles... by allowing my country to further descend into fascism... by not voting for a politician that could prevent that...
...right. You're a smart mother fucker.
Don't be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I've got a principle, personally, that won't allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don't think that's a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for "no genocide" then there is no serious reason to vote.
Pretty clearly it's not a very high bar, since you're supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That's a bar too low to limbo under.
Yeah man, I'm sorry but if you're doing a genocide, fuck you. I've got nothing but hate for you. I don't care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I'll hate them too. That's what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving "political capital" to war criminals.
It's a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you're pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?
Looks like you lost another one.
Ready to shift that full throated rhetoric yet?
"Lost another one"?
What are you on about?
I made the point earlier about how your approach to rhetoric is counter productive.
You've argued in just about every subthread of this entire post. You go down each one and there is @PugJesus@lemmy.world trying to convince someone that they should support Biden. But you haven't convinced a single person that your stance is a stance they should adopt. In fact, when I review the threads, it looks like they've moved farther away from the position you want them to take.
Maybe its you, the basis of your argument, and your approach to rhetoric that's at issue.
What makes you think I'm trying to convince them? I've explicitly said otherwise elsewhere. I don't believe fascists can be saved. They've already dipped down into embracing genocide, and nothing will wring that wretched stink out of them.
But demonstrating the horrendously immoral implications of the talking points they parrot can show others who have only considered the surface of the talking points what absolute genocidal dogshite they're peddling.
lmao, what, they decided that instead of supporting more genocide, they'll support more genocide even harder? Doubt.
You are completely lost if you think you are arguing against genocide.
Okay, you’ve hit on exactly what I don’t get.
Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.
As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.
However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.
I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.
A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I'm concerned.
Well? We're waiting.
When full support for genocide is "the lesser of two evils" then you've already lost. It's straight up evil.
So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their "principles".
I don't understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not "an abstracted philosophical argument". Wake the fuck up. It's real, and it's happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!
Yeah, I do, like harm reduction. Which is what a vote for Biden is. I'm not willing to accelerate the situation in the middle East, climate change, pollution and erosion of rights to make an ineffective point.
Ah but I hear you say Biden isn't perfect, no the fuck he isn't but we're that much further from the left thanks to last time we tried this in 2016.
I know what "not perfect" looks like. Full-throated support of a genocide is more than a difference of opinion. Will anyone be left alive in Gaza by the time of our election? I can't take the idea of campaigning for genocide as a form of "harm reduction".
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you're clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don't allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of "harm reduction" being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I'll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn't quite pull it off. Even best case it's basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don't need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol' Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It's much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you're enabling, isn't it?
"It's much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you're enabling, isn't it?"
It'll be so fun when I'm going to the death camps and you're safe and sound in your suburban home, listening to the news reports on the radio. 😊
You think that's what will happen to you because that's what you're supporting in Gaza right now.
I think that's what will happen to me because the opposition is openly fascist, and people like you are doing their damndest to see a fascist regime elected here because you hate the grotesque foreign policy that has been established over the past 50 years.
Like, it's not something that is unreasonable to see as fucking grotesque; it's only unreasonable to demand that fascism be implemented here - not in the name of stopping the support of genocidaires in our foreign policy, but in the name of intensifying it. Just straight up saying "Yes, I want the greater evil, in all possible areas".
For some reason, this endorsement of the mass murder of Palestinians AND American minorities makes an alarming number of self-proclaimed leftists feel good about themselves.
Where have I endorsed the mass murder of American minorities? If I have done that by denying Biden my vote, then you are endorsing the genocide of Palestinians by assuring Biden of yours. Is that fair to say?
Have...you not been explained how FPTP works or are you deliberately ignoring everyone ?
I understand how it works, yes. What would you like to know about it?
The ball's entirely in Biden's court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what's right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are "Genocide", "Much More Genocide", or "I don't care if there is more genocide"
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don't deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump's victory than a progressive platform.
I don't suppose you've ever considered that the Democrats think that the US electorate isn't as far left as the average Lemmy user?
Wonderful. If they don't need the far left voters, then what exactly is the problem?
Let's see how that strategy plays out.
The problem is that some 48% of the electorate is ready to elect a fascist, and we're sitting at 52% of a coalition that doesn't agree on a single goddamn thing. And apparently, the smallest, leftmost wing of this coalition is beginning to flirt with the idea of "Just let the fascist win", despite the fact that they are, nominally (but apparently not in actuality, as they seem ready to pop champagne bottles at the ushering in of a fascist age) the furthest from the fascist.
Progressives don't want the fascists to win, they want you to listen to us. If the threat of fascists winning is not enough, then you were never going to be on our side.
The only people who have taken their ball and went home are the moderate neoliberals like yourself.
Give us some genuine halfway compromise, and you will have loyal progressive voters. The stakes are simply too high for you to not compromise. We bailed you out in 2020 and you owe us a favor.
So let's see who blinks first.
Yeah, looking down through the comments by self-proclaimed leftists in this community, it seems like a great many of them are eager for the fascists to win to 'show' the Democrats what for. Fuck them minorities who'll suffer or die.
Oh, fucking wonderful. I love it when genocide is used as the stakes in a game of dumb fucking machismo between two political factions who want to show off that THEY have the biggest balls in the room.
Goddammit.
Okay, before we go further - is the reverse here true? If the threat of fascists winning is not enough for progressives to side with liberals, were progressives never going to be on the liberals' side? Is that where we're at?
You know, if you truly believe that, then you would want Biden to blink right now. Again, you want us to blink, not the moderates, and you act like that is a completely unbiased opinion.
Also, to your last point, we have compromised with the Neo-Liberals. We voted for Biden last election. That was the compromise. We were expecting to be rewarded for it. He talked a big game about universal healthcare.
Turns out he lied to us. Oh, but that's okay in your book. You can't repeatedly crap on the people that you need to vote for you and expect anything different.
Oh, okay, you were expecting a reward and didn't get one, that definitely warrants getting as many minorities murdered as you can. Mea culpa, you really were the most moral individual in the room.
You are not even addressing the concern at hand. Democrats are not compromising with progressives, and if they lose, that is on them.
I understand you're frustrated that you can't control what another person does, and you are scared, understandably, of a right-wing overthrow of the government. I am, too. I have been since Donald Trump was elected the first time. Heck, even years prior, I saw where the Republican Party was going, and Democrats at the time did nothing to stop it, then, and they hadn't done anything to stop it during the Trump administration, and they won't stop it now.
I've been scared my entire adult life, and I'm sick and tired of nobody doing anything to stop it. Democrats better wise up fast, or they are going to lose, and it's going to be their fault. And partially, frankly, your fault for not holding them to a higher standard.
Apparently not scared enough, since your current opinion is "Well, it's bad, but not as bad as letting the mean Democrats get away with [checks notes] appealing to the majority of the electorate".
Those of us who are actually at risk, and understand that? A bit more enthusiastic about 'politics as usual' compared to a literal fucking fascist who already tried an autocoup to prevent anyone not a white conservative twat to ever influence government again.
But not your fault, for deciding that you hate the status quo of "American minorities not being genocided" so much that you stepped aside and let the fascists genocide aaaaaall the minorities they want to.