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this post was submitted on 21 May 2024
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Yeah, I do, like harm reduction. Which is what a vote for Biden is. I'm not willing to accelerate the situation in the middle East, climate change, pollution and erosion of rights to make an ineffective point.
Ah but I hear you say Biden isn't perfect, no the fuck he isn't but we're that much further from the left thanks to last time we tried this in 2016.
I know what "not perfect" looks like. Full-throated support of a genocide is more than a difference of opinion. Will anyone be left alive in Gaza by the time of our election? I can't take the idea of campaigning for genocide as a form of "harm reduction".
So what is your alternative? Do nothing and let even more genocide happen? Vote 3rd party and pretend you did more than nothing by voting for someone that is statistically impossible to win?
Its an honest question, because you're clearly against harm reduction at all. If your principles don't allow you to engage in harm reduction, what is your better solution? Doom posting on the internet till the election?
If the alternative to genocide is more genocide, then we are in a failed state for all relevant purposes. I cannot abide the concept of "harm reduction" being applied to voting for genocide (the supreme crime). If I am against harm reduction, then it follows that you are for genocide. Do you see how that works?
The election is nearly 6 months away, so we both have time to think and do a lot of stuff. The world changes around us everyday. Maybe Trump will have a heart attack and die. Maybe Biden will kill himself out of guilt. Who knows? Maybe I'll keep reading headlines about Biden reaffirming his commitment to genocide, and posts from pugjesus about how dumb (or Russian) I must be for not recognizing how cool Joe actually i.
I hope that answers your question, and I have one for you: Imagine you convince someone like me to vote for Joe, and together we all post pro-Joe content, and we all vote real hard for him in November, and he still doesn't quite pull it off. Even best case it's basically a coin toss. What are you planning to do then? I mean, it will be the end of democracy, the new era of fascism and terror. Do you have plans (and means) to leave the country with your loved ones? Do you plan to stay and fight to protect your friends and neighbors? Will you just kind of muddle on going to work and voting? I don't need your answer as much as I need you to think seriously about it, but I am curious. What preparations are you making for the worst case scenario?
Sorry that being confronted with the consequences of your decisions is so distressing to you. It would be so nice if you could show Mean Ol' Joe how very, very cross you are with him without having to think about the millions who will suffer under a Trump regime, or the additional aid to Israeli genocide that would result in.
It's much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you're enabling, isn't it?
"It's much nicer when you can plug your ears and not listen to the screams of the genocides you're enabling, isn't it?"
It'll be so fun when I'm going to the death camps and you're safe and sound in your suburban home, listening to the news reports on the radio. 😊
You think that's what will happen to you because that's what you're supporting in Gaza right now.
I think that's what will happen to me because the opposition is openly fascist, and people like you are doing their damndest to see a fascist regime elected here because you hate the grotesque foreign policy that has been established over the past 50 years.
Like, it's not something that is unreasonable to see as fucking grotesque; it's only unreasonable to demand that fascism be implemented here - not in the name of stopping the support of genocidaires in our foreign policy, but in the name of intensifying it. Just straight up saying "Yes, I want the greater evil, in all possible areas".
For some reason, this endorsement of the mass murder of Palestinians AND American minorities makes an alarming number of self-proclaimed leftists feel good about themselves.
Where have I endorsed the mass murder of American minorities? If I have done that by denying Biden my vote, then you are endorsing the genocide of Palestinians by assuring Biden of yours. Is that fair to say?
Have...you not been explained how FPTP works or are you deliberately ignoring everyone ?
I understand how it works, yes. What would you like to know about it?
So youre just privileged then. Gotcha.
In a lot of ways I am privileged, yes. Aren't we all? Tell you what though, I know some very much less privileged people than myself, that are similarly principled when it comes to genocide.
No, it's because you are unaffected by the downstream consequences of your actions. You get to pontificate on social media about how you won't succumb to the "two-party evil system" while going on about your day. Meanwhile, millions of Americans will be directly affected by Trump's policies. Remember: the presidency is not one person, but also their entire cabinet. So everything from environmental regulations to women's reproductive rights are consequentially downstream. But since none of these issues have any significant impact on your life and you have a very limited understanding of geopolitics you get to sit and preach to the world from your keyboard. If you want to be an accelerationist, then fucking embrace it and own up to the position. Don't hold your tail between your legs and beat around the bush. You should actually vote for Trump and burn the place down. Own it --don't be a bitch on Lemmy and abstain your vote. Just go all the way.
No, it's really not. Either voting is seen as an endorsement, and any vote endorses genocide while not voting doesn't; or a vote is a choice, and not voting or voting for Trump (or 3rd party) endorses genocide, while voting for Biden doesn't. They can't both be correct, you can't do a tit-for-tat, either you're supporting genocide or Pug is.
In an ideal world, we would vote for candidates that excite us, that share our views, or who we feel will simply do a good job. In an ideal world, you are afforded the luxury of voting like this. If you see voting as an endorsement then you're more likely to vote like this, and you're more likely to assign a moral reaponsibility to voting, such that you're responsible for the actions of the person that you vote for.
But you're also responsible for preventing the actions of the person that you didn't vote for. In the real world, in the US with FPTP, voting is a choice. You can vote for one, or the other, or say you don't care (not voting), or use your vote to try to take a moral stand (voting 3rd party). But barring a statistical miracle, there are only two options. The actions of the president WILL affect people. Palestinians will be killed. Queer people will be harrassed or protected. Workers will be beaten or supported. Students will be penniless or financially free. The environment will be abused or respected. Ukraine will be slaughtered or strengthened. The US could die or live.
When you choose not to vote, you think that you relieve yourself of the responsibility of killing Palestinian citizens. But how can you possibly say this if by not voting you have made their conditions materially worse? And along with that, caused the same for our own citizens and our planet? When you don't vote, you aren't escaping the system. You haven't avoided making a choice. You've simply said that you don't care what is chosen. So yes, not voting means that you don't care if things are bad or worse. You don't care if only some people die, or if the state is wiped out entirely. You don't care if there is food aid, or if Israel will be allowed to starve Gazans. You don't care if they die, as long as you get to feel like you wouldn't have caused it. Well, you would. We all have a choice-- one (mostly) equal vote-- and IT IS YOUR DUTY to make the right choice.
I'm struggling to parse your first paragraph, but I think I've got your gist. I do not think that withholding my vote is an endorsement for killing minorities. I do think that a vote for Biden is an endorsement of genocide. I was just trying to point out what a ridiculous accusation it was. I definitely don't expect pug to cop to endorsing genocide tho.
Again with this "ideal world" imperfect candidate bullshit. This is genocide we are talking about, not free college, or reparations, or fucking anything else.
Third paragraph pretty much more of the second. I don't care: stop the genocide first.
Fourth paragraph. This isn't about assuaging my conscience. I am responsible whether I vote or not. I am responsible because I continue to pay taxes that support terror around the world. I am responsible because I don't act more forcefully against the system that grinds up children. If you think I won't vote for a genocidaire to feel superior, you are totally misunderstanding me. Maybe it's your own conscience? All of what you say about Gaza is being done right now, by the guy you are exhorting me to vote for. The state is being wiped out, food aid isn't getting in, and Biden is allowing Israel to starve them. Are you worried that Trump is going to bomb their corpses?
I'm struggling to parse your first paragraph, but I think I've got your gist. I do not think that withholding my vote is an endorsement for killing minorities. I do think that a vote for Biden is an endorsement of genocide. I was just trying to point out what a ridiculous accusation it was. I definitely don't expect pug to cop to endorsing genocide tho.
Again with this "ideal world" imperfect candidate bullshit. This is genocide we are talking about, not free college, or reparations, or fucking anything else.
Third paragraph pretty much more of the second. I don't care: stop the genocide first.
Fourth paragraph. This isn't about assuaging my conscience. I am responsible whether I vote or not. I am responsible because I continue to pay taxes that support terror around the world. I am responsible because I don't act more forcefully against the system that grinds up children. If you think I won't vote for a genocidaire to feel superior, you are totally misunderstanding me. Maybe it's your own conscience? All of what you say about Gaza is being done right now, by the guy you are exhorting me to vote for. The state is being wiped out, food aid isn't getting in, and Biden is allowing Israel to starve them. Are you worried that Trump is going to bomb their corpses?
Well then what are you basing your vote on? It's not the material conditions of the Palestinians in Gaza, because you aren't picking the choice that aligns with that. You say it's not for yourself. Is it just on principle? I sincerely don't understand how you could hold the principle of Palestinian lives over the actual lives themselves.
I thought we built a whole supply pier to get food in more effectively? If you have more details, do tell, because I'm unsure of the details there, but I believe that was its purpose.
Aid is not getting in from the supply pier because we agreed that it would have to go through an Israeli checkpoint before distribution. Predictably, Israel is not allowing the aid to be distributed. Relying on the perpetrator of genocide to help you ameliorate the genocide is so stupid that it defies belief. Unless of course, the pretense is the point.
Aid is not getting in from the supply pier because we agreed that it would have to go through an Israeli checkpoint before distribution. Predictably, Israel is not allowing the aid to be distributed. Relying on the perpetrator of genocide to help you ameliorate the genocide is so stupid that it defies belief. Unless of course, the pretense is the point.
Oh really? That's incredibly lame
The ball's entirely in Biden's court. The alternative is him doing an about face and doing what's right. Notice how none of the moderates act like this is even an option. No, it is us, the voter who must compromise on our morals, not the person in charge who needs the vote.
When election day comes, there are only two realistic candidates. If Biden is still in support of Israel at that time, your effective choices are "Genocide", "Much More Genocide", or "I don't care if there is more genocide"
Welcome to the political process. You want to be an innocent? Find yourself an autocrat willing to take responsibility for your participation in society. The rest of us will deal with the ugly process of wielding political power as citizens.
I voted for the Democrats last time. They don't deserve my vote this time. I was under the illusion that they would be plugging up all the holes in the system so that we could move forward from this fascist nightmare. Instead, they seem to be ceding ground to the fascists.
I genuinely 100% think that Democrats would much prefer Donald Trump's victory than a progressive platform.
I don't suppose you've ever considered that the Democrats think that the US electorate isn't as far left as the average Lemmy user?
Wonderful. If they don't need the far left voters, then what exactly is the problem?
Let's see how that strategy plays out.
The problem is that some 48% of the electorate is ready to elect a fascist, and we're sitting at 52% of a coalition that doesn't agree on a single goddamn thing. And apparently, the smallest, leftmost wing of this coalition is beginning to flirt with the idea of "Just let the fascist win", despite the fact that they are, nominally (but apparently not in actuality, as they seem ready to pop champagne bottles at the ushering in of a fascist age) the furthest from the fascist.
Progressives don't want the fascists to win, they want you to listen to us. If the threat of fascists winning is not enough, then you were never going to be on our side.
The only people who have taken their ball and went home are the moderate neoliberals like yourself.
Give us some genuine halfway compromise, and you will have loyal progressive voters. The stakes are simply too high for you to not compromise. We bailed you out in 2020 and you owe us a favor.
So let's see who blinks first.
Yeah, looking down through the comments by self-proclaimed leftists in this community, it seems like a great many of them are eager for the fascists to win to 'show' the Democrats what for. Fuck them minorities who'll suffer or die.
Oh, fucking wonderful. I love it when genocide is used as the stakes in a game of dumb fucking machismo between two political factions who want to show off that THEY have the biggest balls in the room.
Goddammit.
Okay, before we go further - is the reverse here true? If the threat of fascists winning is not enough for progressives to side with liberals, were progressives never going to be on the liberals' side? Is that where we're at?
You know, if you truly believe that, then you would want Biden to blink right now. Again, you want us to blink, not the moderates, and you act like that is a completely unbiased opinion.
Also, to your last point, we have compromised with the Neo-Liberals. We voted for Biden last election. That was the compromise. We were expecting to be rewarded for it. He talked a big game about universal healthcare.
Turns out he lied to us. Oh, but that's okay in your book. You can't repeatedly crap on the people that you need to vote for you and expect anything different.
Oh, okay, you were expecting a reward and didn't get one, that definitely warrants getting as many minorities murdered as you can. Mea culpa, you really were the most moral individual in the room.
You are not even addressing the concern at hand. Democrats are not compromising with progressives, and if they lose, that is on them.
I understand you're frustrated that you can't control what another person does, and you are scared, understandably, of a right-wing overthrow of the government. I am, too. I have been since Donald Trump was elected the first time. Heck, even years prior, I saw where the Republican Party was going, and Democrats at the time did nothing to stop it, then, and they hadn't done anything to stop it during the Trump administration, and they won't stop it now.
I've been scared my entire adult life, and I'm sick and tired of nobody doing anything to stop it. Democrats better wise up fast, or they are going to lose, and it's going to be their fault. And partially, frankly, your fault for not holding them to a higher standard.
Apparently not scared enough, since your current opinion is "Well, it's bad, but not as bad as letting the mean Democrats get away with [checks notes] appealing to the majority of the electorate".
Those of us who are actually at risk, and understand that? A bit more enthusiastic about 'politics as usual' compared to a literal fucking fascist who already tried an autocoup to prevent anyone not a white conservative twat to ever influence government again.
But not your fault, for deciding that you hate the status quo of "American minorities not being genocided" so much that you stepped aside and let the fascists genocide aaaaaall the minorities they want to.
Hillary Clinton was campaigning on (and truly did believe given her track record) in universal healthcare. How exactly have we moved to the left?
I'm not saying she would have moved us to the left I'm saying Donald Trump moved us to the right.
So that's Biden's excuse for being to the right of Hillary?
None but that's a different argument not the one at hand.
When you run against an incumbent (Trump) you get a center candidate and platform.