261
U.S. Rejects Putin’s Latest Call for Ukraine Negotiations
(www.nytimes.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
261 points (100.0% liked)
World News
37166 readers
172 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Not a single paragraph about the actual demands of Russia. Which they have stated often enough. Basically they don't want NATO right on their doorstep. This is what this whole war was about. But somehow this is never seriously discussed in western media.
If this war was about having NATO on their doorstep, why is it an invasion of a non-NATO country twenty years after the first neighbours of Russia joined NATO? It's never seriously discussed because it's either a lie or unfathomably stupid, and whichever of those two it is doesn't much matter.
Just for a second, imagine you're a neutral country in eastern Europe. Russia has been fucking with Georgia and Moldova since the fall of the Soviet Union, and now it invades Ukraine for the second time within a decade. Russia has never touched a NATO country despite bordering several of them for literally decades. And then Russia acts all shocked when you say you want into NATO
Yeah and Russia protested strongly every time. But Ukraine was their red line. Just because you didn't read it in western media doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I don't condone the invasion but it was predictable and a colossal "failure" of diplomacy if you look at it charitably. At worst it was a long term plan to force Russia into a conflict with the aid of western media to obscure the reason why this war was happening. Russia is acting just like the US would.
So invading Ukraine fixes what for Russia, exactly? The fastest way to make more of Russia's neighbours join NATO is to show them that they're safer in NATO. Like Finland.
Ukrainians mostly weren't interested in joining NATO until Russia took Crimea. Russia pushed Ukraine towards NATO.
"Ukraine applied to integrate with a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) in 2008. Plans for NATO membership were shelved by Ukraine following the 2010 presidential election in which Viktor Yanukovych". Then the Euromaiden protests happened. Then Crimea etc.
It's pretty safe to assume that both Russia and the US meddled in the respective election through NGOs and whatnot. My point is that these are geopolitical games which both sides play and which should be reported as such. Then we'd have a chance to protest for peace negotiations. But as is there is an overwhelming amount of pro-war sentiment.
Public support for joining NATO among polled Ukrainians was very clearly the minority up until Russia invaded.
There's an overwhelming amount of anti-invasion sentiment. People that support arming Ukraine support Ukraine's right to not have chunks carved out of it just because its neighbour has a bigger army.
What are you talking about? There were no concrete plans for Ukraine to enter NATO prior to the invasion in 2014.
See first paragraph. Russia has protested NATO eastward expansion and warned for decades.
Please explain how exactly do you force someone (who suggests to be reasonable) into conflict, basically force them to invade anyone.
Did the Poland "forced" Hitler to start the WW2 the same way?
Well imagine if China were to make a military pact with Mexico and started delivering "defensive" weapon systems to them. There would be protests, sanctions, meddling and attempts for regime change, and if those didn't work there would be invasion.
For the US to invade another country it actually takes far less. Getting bombed is super easy.
It's hardly unprecedented. The USA felt forced into an aggressive response to the Soviets putting missiles in Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.
Then turning Ukraine into Russian territory is a bit counter productive no? That would literally bring NATO to Russias doorstep.
They want a buffer zone. Makes sense in terms of military strategy.
But NATO already is on their doorstep. Norway, Estonia, Poland etc. Even USA is only a few mils away across the Bering Strait.
This is not about Ukraine joining NATO, that's a convenience.
That's just such galaxy brain logic there. We've already built up a threat on your doorstep, so you shouldn't worry about us expanding that threat further. 🤡
Furthermore, Stoltenberg has now publicly admitted that this is in fact about Ukraine joining NATO
You gotta update your script now.
NATO is not the anti-Russia club. They're a defensive pact. Why would you be concerned about your neighbours agreeing to defend each other? Like a neighbourhood watch, perhaps. Maybe you'd be upset if you're planning to do the thing they're defending against. Which is all the more reason for those neighbours to band together.
NATO was founded pretty much explicitly as the anti-USSR club. And it doesn't even matter what it factually is - it's what Russia perceives it as. See their final ultimatum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin's_December_2021_ultimatum
Wait until you hear what that defensive pact did in Yugoslavia and Libya
I think you're missing a paragraph that tells how the border between Russia and NATO increased twofold since (and as the result of) the invasion.
"Hey it's all about NATO. We always wanted less NATO at our doorsteps, and you can see we tried our best to achieve this. That backfired, yes, but we ask you once again to... Ask all those countries nicely to withdraw from NATO. Having NATO at our borders is not healthy for our people, you see... With all those bio laboratories... And parent№1+parent№2 policy that you force on everyone..."
I don't want people like you in my comments but no one acknowledges that. So weird.
I don’t want people like you in my comments but no one acknowledges that. So weird.
.
No, demanding your neighbours all remain weak enough for you to continue bullying is not perfectly reasonable at all
All of the countries near Russia that joined NATO did so because they already have their biggest aggressor on their doorsteps.
If buying stuff from the other side is your yardstick, NATO clearly wasn't a threat to Russia. Germany, Italy, France, and America were all some of Russia's largest import sources in 2021.
Yep, those Russian tanks that crossed into Ukrainian sovereign land were tanks of peace.
My friend it was never about NATO. There is no prospective out there based in fact where NATO has anything to do with it.
The chief of NATO disagrees with you
Russia said since 2014 this was about NATO. Even before they protested strongly the NATO expansion. So how can it not be about NATO? You're either completely uninformed or lying.
You have the media literacy of a fly. Not even Russia supporters believe this is about NATO.
Uh… yes, we do? I mean not only about NATO, but definitely also about NATO. Even liberals like Jeffrey Sachs and radlibs like Noam Chomsky and undead ghouls like Henry Kissinger agree.
The British news outlet The Guardian: "Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored."
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine
By "the Guardian" here what you mean is "an opinion piece from the fucking Cato Institute"
The answers are South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria
While that may or may not be the case this does not permit interference of sovereign state from acting in its own best in own best interest.
Too fucking bad.
I don't want you to be on the internet, but that's not a decision I get to make, just like Russia doesn't gets to decide what its sovereign neighbors do. Because they're not Russia's, and don't have to do what Russia says.
If might makes right, then NATO has the right to absolutely roll over Russia and make it their bitch. But that's not how international law works, and everyone except Russia is still trying to play nice, as much as they can.
This whole shit storm has been about one thing. Putins legacy as the czar that reformed the USSR. That's it. He wants to lift the iron curtain high once more. It's all dick stroking by a madman.
Because they don't get the option to choose. It's not that difficult. Those countries weren't clamoring to join NATO until Russia invaded, so its their own fault.
Have you looked at a map of Europe lately?