Labour is fine. Just not 40, 50 or 60 hours a week. 10-15, maybe 20 hours should be way enough to live a worryfree life. Change my mind.
As long as we're shooting for the moon what say you and me and the mates at work all decide together how much, and how often, and even what we produce?
You mean like a worker co-op? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative)
Or co-determination? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination)
Things like Mondragon Corporation, as well as Germany's quality of life and economic prosperity since their adoption of co-determination laws, shows us that these are not the pipe dreams that capitalists want you to believe they are.
OH! i had heard about how labor gets on the board in germany specifically but never knew the term for it. Thank you friend!
Sure thing. Make sure to tell your friends!
You mean we'd be in control of the means of production? That's an interesting idea. We should come up with a recognizable symbol for this new concept. Something simple, like two silhouettes of tools, maybe crossed.
now just wait a goldarn minnit mister, im not talkin godless unamerican commie shit, i'm talking about returning pride to the workin man. self-determination and democracy at work! dont get it twisted now
It's incredible what a huge difference it make to one's health/mood/etc., having a healthy work/life balance. I think the world would overall be a less angry, spiteful place, if we all worked 4-day, 35-hour work weeks.
Humans were never meant to work 60, 70 hours per week, that's just insane and stupid. What's worse are the people who will brag to you about it. That's how ingrained it is into our culture.
Maybe it's just because I don't loathe the thought of going home to my family? It seems like a lot of those toxic work culture people are doing it for reasons like that?
I also find that most of those who are overworking have a bad relationship at home they actively avoid by working as much as possible and get home to eat and sleep nothing more, sure won't spend time with their kids or wife.
Im with you, but 35h a week are way too much also. At least you should get a really good wage for that much time.
I just don't think this argument really tracks. If we were hunter/gatherers, we would have no choice but to hunt and gather for food. No it's not consensual, you have to do it, but would we really say we were being coerced? By who? Nature?
You can say there is bad stuff about Capitalism, and better ideas or systems we should do instead, without this coercion claim.
In the case of capitalism, we are actually speaking about coercion, though. The concept of "primitive accumulation" (or "primary accumulation"), as introduced by Karl Marx in his critique of political economy, refers to the historical process that led to the formation of capitalism by separating the producer from the means of production. This separation is what ultimately pushed people into the capitalist labor market, making them dependent on selling their labor to survive. The coercive forces that pressured people into capitalism and the labor market can be understood through several key mechanisms:
Enclosure of the Commons: In England and elsewhere in Europe, land that was previously held in common for collective use by peasants was enclosed, privatized, and turned into private property. This process forced many peasants off the land, depriving them of their traditional means of subsistence and making them dependent on wage labor.
Colonialism and Slavery: The expansion of European powers into the Americas, Africa, and Asia involved the appropriation of land and resources, often through violent means. Indigenous peoples were displaced or enslaved, and their resources were extracted for the benefit of European capitalist economies. This not only facilitated the accumulation of capital but also integrated various regions into the global capitalist system.
Legislation: Laws and regulations played a crucial role in this process. For example, the series of laws known as the "Poor Laws" in England were designed to coerce the unemployed and poor into working for wages. These laws restricted the movement of labor and made it illegal to refuse work, effectively pushing people into the labor market.
Destruction of Alternative Economies: Pre-capitalist forms of production and exchange, such as feudalism, communal living, or barter systems, were systematically destroyed or undermined. This was not only through direct coercion but also through economic policies and practices that favored capitalist modes of production and exchange.
Industrial Revolution: The technological advancements of the Industrial Revolution created a demand for labor in factories. The rural populations, already dispossessed by the enclosure movements, migrated to urban centers in search of work, further entrenching the wage labor system.
Marx argued that primitive accumulation was not a one-time historical event but an ongoing process that sustains capitalism. It involves continuous dislocation and dispossession to maintain a labor force that has no other choice but to sell its labor power. This process ensures a supply of workers for the capitalist system and maintains the conditions necessary for capital accumulation.
In essence, the transition to capitalism, fueled by these coercive forces, created a society where the majority must sell their labor to a minority who owns the means of production, thereby establishing the capitalist labor market and perpetuating the cycle of capital accumulation.
Thanks for taking the time to do this informative write-up.
If we were hunter/gatherers, we would have no choice but to hunt and gather for food.
The argument is not that people are forced to labor, but that people are forced to labor on behalf of others. Which is to say, its the difference between a Hunter/Gatherer living off the land and a King's Huntsman, who is distinguished from a Poacher, in that he has duties and privileges assigned to him by another guy.
You can say there is bad stuff about Capitalism, and better ideas or systems we should do instead, without this coercion claim.
The nature of the Capitalist system is to lay claim to physical property with some threat of violence. It is inherently a dictatorial system, in which a handful of people are afforded the right to claim surplus to sustain and enrich themselves at the expense of their neighbors.
The "bad stuff" is what makes Capitalism a system at all. It is - to crib a joke from Monty Python - the violence that is inherent within the system. If you don't pay your dues to the King, he gets to beat them out of you.
How can you even discuss Capitalism without talking about this innate coercive mechanic?
It only tracks because you can't get consent from nature. You could have gotten consent from fellow humans. The humans who put this structure in place were people that could be negotiated with and spoken to. Not some blind force.
While I agree with the sentiment, saying that it's been hundreds of years in the making is just wrong. If anything, labor rights are at historic highs, and that's been centuries in the making.
both are correct. As long as their has been expropriation of labour there has been struggle for liberation, also enclosure and forced market participation has been a project of centuries.
As in all things it's push and pull. If you want to learn more read about enclosure of the Commons and at least the bits of Debt: the first 5000 years that deal with imposing currency.
I often think of this famous line to remember that there’s been a whole lot of improvement: “he must a king, he doesn’t have shit all over him.”
Not only that, before we can even "freely" sell ourselves, we, or someone, has to pay for our preparation/education, because why pay for a slave's training when you can charge them?
How is this a microblog meme? Can we please not turn this community into unnuanced political opinions?
How is it not a microblog meme? It fits the definition of both a microblog and a meme. Being nuanced isn't a requirement.
How is this a meme? It's just a screenshot of someone's post.
Some blunt hot take of a politically charged opinion, which serves no purpose but to preach to the choir of people who already agree, is not what I'd imagine most people expect from a meme community without a theme other than specifying a source. It's a meme community, not soapbox for my opinions land.
No humor or entertainement value, no bait and switch, non-sequiteur, or anything to get any sort of reaction other than "you're right and that makes me upset at the state of things" or "wow that's a crap take".
I'm not even going the route of "keep politics and things that remind me of the poor state of the world out of my funny hahas", and you could probably argue endlessly about what the modern definition of a meme really is, but this ain't it boss.
There's plenty of more appropriate communities for this sort of content.
A meme is anything that is spread through sharing and imitation. If you don't like that definition, take it up to that one biology guy who came up with it
By that (definitely incorrect) definition, all content on any mass media is a "meme".
We are slaves. We just don't like in a big plantation. No. We live anywhere where there are "jobs". No jobs means we become homeless eventually. And who has these "jobs"? The rich assholes do. Just like we were forced to work for their forefathers in plantations, now we work for them in "jobs". The job is basically a metaphorical plantation.
This is actually a batshit insane comparison. You're fucking crazy, man.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
Similarities between wage labor and slavery were noted as early as Cicero in Ancient Rome, such as in De Officiis. With the advent of the Industrial Revolution, thinkers such as Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Karl Marx elaborated the comparison between wage labor and slavery, and engaged in critique of work while Luddites emphasized the dehumanization brought about by machines. The introduction of wage labor in 18th-century Britain was met with resistance, giving rise to the principles of syndicalism and anarchism.
In my view, crazy is a dismissive word used to avoid making an attempt to understand. A lazy word, and I think most who think about it realize this and stop using it.
I can see your perspective, but I believe you've made minimal effort to understand the "crazy" ideas you are being presented.
The alternative is everyone grows their own food, builds their own houses, makes their own clothes, gathers firewood, yadda yadda.
You certainly wouldn't have the Internet in such a paradise.
That said, with all that we now have, 4 6 hour work days should be the norm.
The alternative is everyone grows their own food
The alternative is that when you grow food or build homes or make cloths or gather firewood, you own the real material you create plus all the surplus, which can then be used in trade.
When you're working in an industrial agricultural system, you produce orders of magnitude more food than you could ever consume. But as a tenant farmer or field hand, you barely claim enough income to buy enough to sustain yourself personally, because so much of your work product is claimed by your employer.
You certainly wouldn’t have the Internet in such a paradise.
When you're enjoying an industrial surplus, why wouldn't you have access to a cheap and efficient means of mass communication?
Why are they called rights if not everyone has them
To distinguish between Humans and Human Capital.
Not saying op is wrong but why is there so much negativity on Lemmy? I agree capitalism is not a great system but I feel like this horse has been dead for a while and we are still beating it.
Lemmy kinda bums me out tbh.
Be the change you want to see in the Fediverse and start posting funny memes instead of complaining.
But we have our freedom.
Freedom to work at a selection of under paying, exploitative places that will take from you every ounce of effort, strength, and time, so that you can "earn" a living... Because nobody is going to give you a living; you're not worth anything unless you work and earn your life.
Freedom to choose from a number of ways to live, how to travel from place to place, either by buying an overpriced automobile, and paying for every interaction any professional repair person has with it... Or you can choose to pay to ride transit, where you have to conform to their schedule and if you're late, you're left behind... And you get to pay for the privilege. Or you could, IDK, walk? But wait, it's MILES away from your home, because it's in a commercial zone and you live in a residential zone. We couldn't possibly mix commercial and residential. Tsk tsk. That's just not okay.
You can also choose to buy food at the grocery store where the lowest prices are not in the shareholders best interest, so we'll do everything we can to convince you that you're getting the best deals by offering lower prices on your food, as the quality slips away, and products are shrunken down to the point where it's almost not worth buying it anymore.
But because you have been given a choice, you are "free" and not a slave. Clearly.
..... Late stage capitalism is just slavery with extra steps. They're making the slaves figure their own shit out, rather than give them food and a place to sleep.... Just, here's your barter (pay) for today, go figure out where to sleep and what to eat on your own fucking time.
If you want peace and safety, you need to participate in society. That means paying taxes and voting in elections. Too many people only did the paying taxes bit, and now our society's fucked.
Except that the Amish exist...
Are you saying the poor should kill the existing land owners so they can colonize Pennsylvania?
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