This post about a new Lemmy instance is on topic for this community. You can all have your own feelings about this instance and what it’s trying to do, but a single post here announcing it isn’t spam.
Please stop reporting this post and OP’s comments.
It has been my experience that “free speech” (especially online) is code for “bigotry welcome”.
I see nothing in the description here to convince me this will be any different.
No definitely not trying to allow bigotry. You are definitely entitled to feel that way though.
But it doesn’t appear that you’re specifically disallowing it either
You are definitely entitled to feel that way though.
My concern is that this is what you will also say to the bigots when they arrive
When you sit down at a table and nine Nazis sit down at that table with you, there are now 10 Nazis sitting at that table.
You might have been expecting the response you got here, or you might not have. I know I learnt more about nazi/hate speech dogwhistles in my first few weeks as a Lemmy admin than I had learnt in all my life up to that point 😅.
I also know in those early days there were people worried my instance was a "free speech" instance because I wanted open conversations instead of bans. Mostly I think I didn't appreciate how big of a problem it was, and for sure I had people registered on my instance expecting it was a "free speech" instance. There are people out there looking for a place to spout their hate and many think Lemmy is the place for it because it's advertised as censorship resistant.
Please know that there is a strong belief (among both nazis and anti-nazis) that indicating a place as being able to speak your mind is a dog whistle for allowing hate speech. Over time if you find you aren't attracting the right kind of members, you may need to tweak your wording. But also please know that the idea of supporting people to be better community members instead of flat out banning people does work for many members, because many people just don't realise that what they are saying is harmful. Some people will be operating in bad faith though, and it's typically the same small number of people that keep getting banned. Because you have open registrations, these users are more likely to come to your instance.
It's also important to understand that the Fediverse is full of users that have felt unsafe on mainstream social media. Your rules against hate speech need to be strictly enforced, of you'll find yourself isolated in the Fediverse as no one will want to federate with you.
Thanks! This is by far the most constructive comment I have gotten and truly appreciate it. I’m learning and always will adjust as needed. I’m open to constructive criticism and more importantly any insight others who have done this can provide. The immediate assumptions about me and my goals were at best amusing and not at all constructive however, somewhat unsurprising to be honest.
So, transphobia, racism, misogyny, all acceptable as long as it's aimed broadly, and doesn't become targeted harassment of an individual?
On the reverse of that, if you want to promote the opposite you are more than welcome to, free speech is a two way street. I don't really tolerate hate though. Maybe I'll update our description.
That's not good enough. You're saying they have the right to attack people, but at least the targeted people can defend themselves. Those are not comparable
Lemmy itself doesnt have shadowbans, all ban logs are public.
Lemmy already has public ban logs which have reasons listed. I'm not sure what you're really offering here. I think you're being extremely naive and are fundamentally lacking understanding in how oppression and the "marketplace of ideas" functions.
Thank you! Pre-blocking this so I won't have any splash damage my main feed. "Open mic" translates too much on nazi or hate baiting nowadays. Open socials need moderation or become chesspools. I do not hang out with toxic people in real life, I don't understand the principle that "I have to" do it digitally. Hard pass. Good luck!
This either already is or will become a hotbed for rightwing pieces of shit.
So if I wanted to start a pro-nazi community there, you would permit that?
Lemmy has bans, no shadowbans. There's no recommender algorithm to make the "shadow" part. Or mod tool to edit votes. I believe you are using incorrectly the term. Please clarify. A ban is a ban. Shadowban is no ban per se, but from there on you post to /dev/null in whichever platform has support for that shit (i.e. meta)
Lemmy most definitely has shadowbans, but they are applied at the level of whole entire communities rather than end-users. I remember being on the StarTrek.Website instance when that functionality was added to the Lemmy code, and discussing with someone my finding out that ChapoTrapHouse was no longer accessible from it, despite the fact the instance remained federated. No announcement of that fact was ever made iirc, it's just that one day poof the behavior has changed, after Lemmy deployed a version that allowed for that.
Some few instances are very open about their hiding of communities - see e.g. https://legal.programming.dev/docs/hidden-communities/, listing in detail every one - but most are not, and the Lemmy UI has nothing at all like the list that it shows for (de)federations.
The Lemmy admins also can remove people even from the modlogs, in cases of severe abuse. Tbf it's exceedingly rare and there is little evidence of this being abused (well there was one time, but the excuse that it was due to a bug seemed believable to me and most everyone else - Lemmy.ml quite often tests new versions of the code before they get rolled out to the rest of the Threadiverse, which is quite helpful actually).
Lemmy also fails to notify someone of their having been moderated. The various communities are FULL of stories of people asking where their posts went, or why they can no longer post to a community, or stating their discovery that they have an event in the modlog. The notification of moderation activities is exceedingly poor on the Lemmy platform.
Sadly, Reddit does a much better job at notification of an event, and also provides for a modmail to communicate with the mods to discuss the situation, e.g. to ask why, rather than leaving it to the end-user to wonder if they should DM each one listed in sequence until they find one that is even active much less responsive...
Lemmy is imperfect. At least Huffman is not in charge here, but conversely the tools have aways to go before we catch up even to what Reddit offers.
Will your management of the instance be as low effort as your introductory post that you obviously didn't write yourself?
Illegal where? Criticism of Israel is illegal in Germany, for example.
Quit your bullshit.
Fuck Israel. Israel is a fascist state that commits a suicide in Gaza. I am a German in Germany and I just critiziced Israel. I even used bad language. That is not illegal so don't spread lies if you don't know shit about the laws a country has.
Regarding your "example': That's new to me, being a German. in this broad way the statement is wrong, i suppose. ChatGPT confirmed this. there is no law against denying the right of Israel to exist. It is only true that German politics has ever since Second World War felt a historical responsibility to support Israel against antisemitism.
What is your definition of free speech?
Fair question, and have sat thinking about answering it changed my mind about the wording I am using.
What I actually built is due process, not a speech policy — no shadowbans, you're told which rule you broke, warnings before bans, public appeals. That came from getting shadowbanned off Reddit for advertising my own business with no notice and no recourse.
"Free speech" was the wrong description for that and I've pulled it from the description. The line I'm drawing: you can argue an unpopular position here without being removed for it, but you can't dehumanize people for who they are. Bigotry isn't dissent — it drives out the people who make a place worth being in. I personally want OpenMic to be welcoming to others, with out the disenfranchising hate, or destructive speech. It'll be there, it'll happen and I'll do my best to clean it up. I can promise one thing I learned a long time ago is we can all find something to disagree about, and we can easily come up with reasons to hate one another. Thats not very interesting and makes life not fun.
So while I appreciate your question (part of me thinks it had ulterior motives and was more of a trap, this thread is full of it) I think my use of free speech may have been misguided. I also teach my kids regularly that while you have freedom of speech, you don't have freedom of consequences because of that speech.
I am human, I am learning as I go, I am definitely not perfect. I am however willing to learn and improve.
People aren't trying to trap you. What you're seeing is vulnerable people who have seen and heard all of this before trying to get your boundaries out in the open before your instance gets momentum. That way, they can decide whether to interact with your instance, block it or defederate it before being exposed to yet more hate targeting them under the veneer of "civil debate".
Okay, I say that is a lot more concise definition for what you're aiming for. When a website declares to be for "free speech", it carries a certain connotation these days. Look what Twitter has become after it got bought by Elon Musk and turned into a "free speech website" for example. And good that a line has been drawn so that bigotry isn't allowed.
Thanks. I’m working on it. I don’t really have tolerance for hate and I’ll be honest I think many of the people here are just as bad ad the ones they are commenting against. I also realize we’ve all lived a different experience and I have to allow room for that, at the end of the day I have zero tolerance for hate.
Also, in full transparency. You won't find me in debates or discourse about much of the "hot topics" or the "footgun topics" Politics, Religion, etc. They frankly rarely produce any meaningful output or outcome and often devolve into circular arguments and hate on both sides of an issue. I personally am far more interested in technical discussions, engineering discussions, and business discussions.
Openmic makes me think there will be audio.
There are development plans
Great, wish you the best, but if anything gets illegal is federated to mine that's where I have to defederate. One admin to another wish you luck though.
Fair questions — you deserve a direct answer: No. A pro-Nazi community wouldn't be allowed here, and neither is racism, transphobia, or misogyny — "aimed broadly" or not. I in no way support hate.
"Free speech" here means something specific: we don't shadowban, we tell you exactly which rule you broke and give you a path to fix it, and we won't remove you for an unpopular opinion or a hard argument made in good faith. It does not mean a license to dehumanize people for who they are. Bigotry isn't brave dissent — it's harassment with a wider target, and it drives out the very people who make a place worth being in.
If drawing that line costs us the crowd who think "free speech" means "slurs welcome" — good. They were never the point. The mic's open to everyone; it's not a megaphone for hate. Be a good human. It isn't hard. You can debate your point with out dehumanizing others, when you can't, you've already lost the argument.
“Free speech” here means something specific: we don’t shadowban
Shadowbanning has nothing to do with speech. I'd recommend you reconsider your verbiage.
we won’t remove you for an unpopular opinion
Most instances already don't do that. Which leads me to believe you have unpopular (hateful) opinions and want to create a community where those opinions are welcomed.
Be a good human. It isn’t hard.
No, and yet many people fail to. And these are the types who will be attracted to your community.
You can debate your point with out dehumanizing others, when you can't, you've already lost the argument.
No. You can’t. And giving a “open mic“ to the Nick Fuenteses and Stephen Millers, and Charlie Kirks of the world who will put on a suit and a tie and try to “debate” you while dehumanizing others with nice sounding words gives them a platform to spread their hate while framing it as a “civilized debate“ rather than the coded bigotry that it is, while you cast aside any responsibility for letting them do it, tossing your hands up and claiming “free speech”.
It’s plainly and obviously bullshit. It’s like inviting a vampire into the house and then being surprised when everyone turns up dead.
Yeah, it's a shame, "free-speech" gets abused by bad people and it can't be the scope for any platform. I could imagine it being used for other purposes as well. For example I always wanted to run a Piracy community that doesn't remove links or tutorials on how exactly we do it. But that probably also crosses the lines. ...Some other Robin Hood activity... I mean it could be used for good as well, depending on perspective.
Thank you.
I also took these comments to heart and made some updates to our sidebar. I appreciate anyone who wants to participate in good faith, I started this because Reddit shadow banned me simply for trying to advertise my business. They didn't even give me an opportunity to make things right, and it was a honest mistake. I think thats a really crappy thing to do to people. I don't want to participate in that.
Sounds like you'll have an interesting time moderating trolls and their endless respawns. Shadowbanning has its troublesome aspects even conceptually, but it was invented for a reason.
shaddowbanning is pathetic and lazy.
Thank you! Don’t hesitate to reach out if I am missing anything, I definitely don’t want anything illegal happening. I am looking for more mods and admin a to help out as well! Appreciate the kind words!
Haha careful on the “marketplacr of ideas” that moniker was claimed by Gettr. Ask me how I know.
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