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A woman drives with both hands on the wheel. Her phone sits face-down on her lap. No officer pulls her over. No lights flash. Weeks later, a $1,251 ticket arrives in the mail. The evidence: a single frame from a Camera surveillance app. The charge: phone use while driving.

Automated camera companies market their devices as automated license plate readers — tools for catching stolen cars, flagging warrants, and aiding serious investigations.

Sold as a Crime Tool. Used as a Fine Machine.

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[-] EnsignWashout@startrek.website 227 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Let's be sure to name and shame, for anyone who missed it: Georgia and Florida.

Company is - you guessed it - ~~Flock.~~ (Mention of Flock in the article has been removed with a correction.)

[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 68 points 3 weeks ago

Flock is shit, but apparently not the one who did this. Ig they could be lying?

Flock Safety reached out to us to clarify that our information was wrong. Flock cameras were not involved with the woman driving with her phone story. Alexandra Parade, where the incident took place, is a well traveled coastal highway with systems operated by state revenue programs. We have corrected that and removed any mention of Flock being involved with that story.

[-] MangoCats@feddit.it 17 points 3 weeks ago

When I first heard of the amputee story (a bodycam video/audio of the initial encounter) it sounded to me like this was good old-fashioned police work, followed up with a typical harassment citation to send the citizen they didn't like's attitude to court if they wanted a chance to prove that they weren't holding a phone in their amputated hand.

[-] peopleproblems@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

I think people are rightfully referring to mass surveillance system cameras as Flock cameras.

Even if the company folds, the cameras will still be operated. It doesnt matter what the brand is that makes em.

It matters people know what they are.

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[-] Soulphite@reddthat.com 135 points 3 weeks ago

Unconstitutional. Get that stupid ass shit dismissed in court.

[-] just2look@lemmy.zip 95 points 3 weeks ago

Get it dismissed, and then sue the department that sent the fine.

[-] FartMaster69@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 3 weeks ago
[-] Clent@lemmy.dbzer0.com 22 points 3 weeks ago

Plenty of lawyers that work on contingencies if they think you have a worthy case.

[-] WhoIzDisIz@lemmy.today 21 points 3 weeks ago

Might have more luck suing the company running the camera software which flagged it.

[-] just2look@lemmy.zip 27 points 3 weeks ago
[-] Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world 27 points 3 weeks ago

YOU get a lawsuit! And YOU get a lawsuit!

EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS STUPIDITY GETS A LAWSUIT!!!

Too bad they'll all be thrown out of court after the company pays off the judge.....Ya know, it used to be when I'd say things like that, which I knew were always true, that people would say I'm crazy. That businesses can't just BUY their way out of a lawsuit.

And now, the corruption is just out there. Everyone can see it now. Which kind of validates me, but also it means that things have gotten so much worse though out there. Now they feel no fear in basically telling the public "We run this shit, not you."

Now for the next thing people will think I'm crazy for. Once they have it well established that they have bought and own the government, they'll begin taking things away. I'm not talking about healthcare, or important things. That's already started. They're in the process right now of gutting programs like SNAP, and Medicaid. They began that about a year ago.

What I'm talking about is, right now you have no reason to believe that you can't go down to your local ice cream parlor and get an ice cream cone. Nothing wrong with that. No reason to believe you'll be denied. Give it time. There will come a day where you go to get ice cream, and they'll tell you no. You're not part of the in group. You're not allowed to have ice cream.

And I'm not saying this about just ice cream. That's just one example of something that is an affordable luxury, that has zero importance in life but it makes you feel good. It brings you joy.

Those are the types of things you'll start being denied as they take more and more for themselves. They'll want movie theaters to no longer allow the common man. They'll want public pools closed, and renovated into private pools with private entry. They'll want everything for them, and for you to beg to get common luxuries.

For them, it's not about having vs not having. It's about power. The ability to lick an ice cream cone, as they watch you go without, and laugh. They want the status of being able to tell you what to do. They want the world for themselves. That's where this whole epstein's island comes from. Some of them might actually be attracted to young kids, but really the thrill for them is to be able to take your sons and daughters dignity. They want what society says they can't have, and is wrong for anyone to have. They want that. They want the taboo. They want the power to say they can have it anytime they want. Regardless of how wrong it is. To them it's a show of power, and that's all they've ever cared about.

Call me crazy, but in 20 years, when there's an entire generation who's never tasted ice cream in their lives, maybe you'll remember this post. Probably not, but I will. Just like if I knew where my 1st grade teacher, Mrs Huey was, I'd go tell her the conversation we had 30+ years ago. The one in which she claimed that I'd grow up, and stop playing video games. I told her that on my death bed, I'd be playing video games no matter how old I got. I'm 42 now, and I'd ask her "At what point am I going to grow out of video games? When does the growing up happen? I'm older today, than you were the day you said that." And she, in turn, I assume would tell me it's not important, and that it was 30 years ago. Which is frustrating because 30 years ago she wouldn't believe me, and now, she won't care. Anything to avoid saying you were wrong I suppose. Which is weird to me. I have no issue when I'm wrong. Happens quite a bit. When I was 8, I thought I'd grow up to be one of the ninja turtles. Which, just conceptually makes no sense. The turtles became the turtles because they were already regular turtles, and then mutated when they got covered in toxic waste. If anything, I'd just be a really big mutated human. Think about it. The turtles were little regular pet store turtles. Maybe 7 inches tall if held upright. Then they get splashed with ooze, and they're like 7 feet tall. So as a kid, I was probably 4 feet tall......so I'd be like 30 feet tall I guess? I mean, that would still be cool, but also, we're ignoring the medical problems of being mutated. I'd probably get cancer again.

What was I talking about again?

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[-] Philote@lemmy.ml 28 points 3 weeks ago

Yes, but the process is also a punishment.

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[-] uriel238 81 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I remember the NSA massive surveillance machine during the George W. Bush administration and Obama administration that tracked phone metadata and internet traffic that left or entered the US (which was used to justify a lot of surveillance of US citizens). Even after the Snowden disclosures of 2013 we were promised that the system was only meant to track foreign terrorists.

Then we learned that DEA had full access to it, and that NSA was sending hints to law enforcement about large amounts of cash in transit so it could be intercepted for purposes of asset forfeiture, what is nothing short of robbery of civilians by law enforcement officers.

This is an example of mission creep, in this case how it affects the surveillance state. Once we allow a method or technology to be used for major crime (like terrorism), it will eventually be used even for minor crime (like drug possession or distracted driving).

It's very common for courts to forgive a violation of fourth amendment protections against unreasonable search when the violation presents evidence for a major crime, but then that case will be used as precedent when the same violation occurs and discovers a minor infraction.

This is how, during the aughts and 2010s, the Fourth Amendment was gutted by a long run of carve-outs. Now, a police officer or state agent can violate your privacy without a warrant via a whole range of exceptions:

~ If the crime they discover is significant (SCOTUS suggested controlled substance possession as an example)
~ Using specialized technology, say long-range multi-spectrum cameras, or using a drone.
~ If probable cause can be established. A favorite is a detection dog that signals on anything and has a 90%+ false positive rate.¹ (This is a particular beef of mine, since fake detection dogs are now more common than actual detection dogs, and dogs are losing their presumption of regularity as a result.)
~ If the police officer was acting in good faith, which is obtusely defined and is very hard to disprove.
~ If the suspect is non-white or otherwise suspicious due prejudice. Really, in a lot of counties, law enforcement are allowed to operate on hunches, or have a suspicious activity parameter list that is so encompassing (and often contradictory) that it's impossible to not be suspicious.

If you want to know how we got here these were already problems during the Obama administration when we had allegedly reasonable people in elected offices. And while they discussed the risk of too much power falling into the wrong hands, they felt compelled to keep it.

Whether the One Ring, or the Ring of Gyges, power without consequence is too seductive.

¹ A similar issue is the $2 roadside drug test which reacts to a lot of substances that aren't controlled, such as glazed sugar off a donut. These were originally supposed to be then verified later in a lab, but instead were used to establish probable cause, and eventually were used as evidence in court.

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[-] Kazumara@discuss.tchncs.de 79 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Since the article appears to be mostly a weird collection of badly referenced random cases, let me give you the primary source on the case in the headline:

https://www.tiktok.com/@kristakampz/video/7640403411845877012

Edit and also to save you having to go to tiktok, here's a frame extracted from the video:

Note, this was in Alexandra Headland in Queensland in Australia. So no idea why the article cites Georgia law....

Also this is relevant: https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/mobile-phones

Illegal mobile phone use while driving includes:

  • holding it in your hand
  • resting on any part of your body (eg. your lap or shoulder)

If you hold your phone or have it on your body, you will be fined even if you’re not operating the phone, or it’s turned off.

[-] lastlybutfirstly@lemmy.world 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Why is it illegal to have a phone in your lap? That doesn't make sense. That's bizarre.

Edit:

Really? This is a hot take? WTF!

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 19 points 3 weeks ago

If you write enough laws in a manner that makes it easy to violate them accidentally, then anyone can be prosecuted at any time and civil liberties can be removed via technicalities.

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[-] isleepinahammock 18 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Why is it illegal to have a phone in your lap?

Likely to make the law in any way practical to enforce. Many people will use their phone in the car by keeping it between their legs like a middle schooler hiding their phone use from their teacher. They can read messages or watch videos while keeping it out of their hands, but it's still just as distracting.

You could just ban looking at a phone in your lap while driving, but then you have the nightmare of proving that someone who glanced down was actually looking at their phone, rather than just randomly glancing down for some other innocent reason. And they would have to glance down at their phone at the exact moment a camera or police officer saw them.

Phone use is actually very hard to enforce because of the nature of its use. People using their phone while driving don't tend to continuously look at the phone the whole time they drive - they would be completely incapable of driving if they did so. Instead, they use it intermittently, such as while stopped at a traffic light or while cruising down the highway. That use is still enough to degrade their driving performance to the level of a drunk driver, but it's not continuous. To make enforcement practical, you need to write the law so that it doesn't require a lucky coincidence to enforce.

For an older comparable example, consider open container laws. You might reasonably ask, "wait, as long as I'm not drinking from it, why can't I have an open beer in the car? Maybe I just want to take my half-finished beer home from the bar and finish it at home!" And while that would be a perfectly innocuous reason to have an open container of alcohol in the car, it would also make drunk driving laws much more difficult to enforce. You could only ticket someone for drinking in the car if they happen to take a sip right when you're watching. Instead of trying to outlaw the infrequent action, you instead outlaw the necessary but continuous action. It's not practical to only ban drinking in vehicles. Instead you ban having an open container, as "possessing an open container" is something a drunk driver will be doing for a protracted period of time.

It's not a perfect approach to writing laws; you do end up criminalizing some innocuous behavior. But trade offs have to be made. Yes, it's unfortunate that open container laws also make it so you can't bring your half-finished drink home from the bar. And yes, it's unfortunate that banning cell phone use while driving also requires banning just having a phone in your lap.

But if you've ever worked in a classroom, you'll know that this is the only way to actually ban cell phone use while driving. Teachers learn very quickly they can't just ban students from using their phones, they have to completely ban them from having them out at all. Relying on lucky coincidences to enforce laws is not a practical solution.

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[-] buddascrayon@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

So no idea why the article cites Georgia law....

Because there was another case in Georgia in December that they were citing as well. In fact they cite several cases in different parts of the country. The article is making a case for a supreme court challenge to these Constitution violating cameras and fines. The Australian cases just a viral opener for the topic.

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[-] Aatube@lemmy.dbzer0.com 48 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

obviously LLM-generated article from an odd outlet that publishes five articles every hour

the news is real because it just regurgitates 404media

[-] spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works 43 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

An example of what people in positions of authority think is perfectly acceptable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_v._Lower_Merion_School_District

School authorities surreptitiously and remotely activated webcams embedded in school-issued laptops the students were using at home. After the suit was brought, the school district, of which the two high schools are part, revealed that it had secretly taken more than 66,000 images.

A lawsuit wasn't enough, the administrators should be branded as sex offenders and the parents should have taken them out behind the school and beat the crap out of them.

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[-] Formfiller@lemmy.world 34 points 3 weeks ago

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin

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[-] trackball_fetish@lemmy.wtf 24 points 3 weeks ago

Remember kids, blackout or reflective tint and anti alpr film for ya plates are your friends.

[-] teolan@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Or... you don't need a plate on a bicycle.

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[-] creamfresh@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Maybe don’t be a dick in traffic?

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[-] pelespirit@sh.itjust.works 23 points 3 weeks ago

I don't know what town it is exactly (Kirkland or Kenmore, WA), and they had a speed limit posted as 30mph., but gave my friend a ticket for going over 28 in a 25 zone. They grayed out the speed limit in the photo they sent that was approved by a cop. My friend would've had to go and get a picture of the sign to prove what assholes they were. I remember the sign and know for a fact that it said 30. Not enough to fight it, but enough to stay the fuck away from that town.

[-] Catoblepas 31 points 3 weeks ago

Some towns literally just exist to extract money from nonlocals who don’t know to not go through there. There’s one near where I grew up that transitions from a 60 mph to a 30 mph zone at the bottom of a hill, so if you aren’t riding your brakes the whole way down you’re speeding. And of course the cops love to sit there and pop people with tickets for it.

[-] SayJess 12 points 3 weeks ago

Same sort of speed traps used to be along the only route to a casino I went to a few times. My first time driving to the casino, they were laying in wait. I got caught on the way back.

Pigs sure do love to jam people up. Bonus points if they ruin the life of a minority! There certainly are no such thing as quotas, right?

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[-] unemployedclaquer@sopuli.xyz 12 points 3 weeks ago

Old guy told me in addition to photos you should request all documentation regarding that specific sign and that stretch of road, such as the work order to have it installed. Public records laws vary lol

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[-] fubarx@lemmy.world 23 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Hey, they could connect the car 'driver attention camera' thing, the OBD car speed stuff, and the in-car GPS to the municipality, the insurance company, and your credit card or bank account.

That way, the minute you look away, go a little over the speed limit, or check your phone message, they just gouge some cash out of your bank account. After three of these, your insurance rate goes up. After the tenth time, your health insurance and employer will be notified.

Fun times! 🎉

Edit: every damn step of this is now available via APIs or Agentic MCPs. There is zero technical barrier for this happening. Sleep tight y'all.

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[-] Sunflier@lemmy.world 22 points 3 weeks ago

Article:

Georgia law (OCGA 17-4-23) generally requires a traffic offense occur in the presence of an officer for a citation to be valid — raising direct legal questions about mail-in AI camera tickets.

Washington State caps automated camera fines at $145 under RCW 46.63.220 — far below what you might be paying too much when the viral ticket hits $1,251.

Five Albany, Georgia officers were criminally charged for misusing Flock plate-reader data for personal reasons, according to USA Today.

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[-] SunshineJogger@feddit.org 21 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

They should take away her drivers license. A fine is not enough for so blatantly endangering everyone....

This is what I would say if she had actually looked down and not paid attention to traffic.

But this? This is just abusive use of technology

[-] orioler25@lemmy.world 26 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I mean, it would also be insane to take someone's license away for actually using their phone at this point too. Newer cars have actual touchscreen tablet interfaces that requires the driver to look away from the road; sometimes even to see basic information like their current speed. Plus, there's all these dickbags on the road in pickups or other light trucks (with or without those iPad screens) that are purposefully designed primarily to exude masculinity, not be safe vehicles to drive.

At this point, I don't know how we argue that the phone thing is dangerous without the allowance of all that other shit contradicting that reasoning. Even worse, the existence of these infotainment systems in the cars themselves has probably resulted in charges laid against poorer people who drive older vehicles disproportionately while Keith is on his way to work at the landlord factory and watching Madagascar 3 on his speedometer.

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[-] Zephyr@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 weeks ago

Would be funny if it was a more modern vehicle, with a massive ipad that's nearly bolted to your forehead and has displays on the back of every headrest.

[-] dandu3@lemmy.world 17 points 3 weeks ago

Why would the phone be on your lap if you're not using it?

This is kinda justified.

[-] spaghettiwestern@sh.itjust.works 20 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

By the same logic if you're transporting unopened liquor in a grocery bag on the seat next to you it's "kinda justified" to be arrested for drinking while driving. After all why would it be in arm's reach if you weren't planning on drinking it?

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[-] blitzen@lemmy.ca 19 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Not even a little justified. What are you on about?

Phone is on her lap specifically because she’s not using it.

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[-] auzy1@lemmy.world 15 points 3 weeks ago

Not allowed to keep her phone on her lap when driving. Let's be honest, she used it, and put it down quickly

Here in Australia a cop busted me using my phone once (not defendable, but I was at a red light).

I have no problem with that. I also have no problem with mobile phone detection either still despite getting pulled over

If you don't want to follow the traffic laws don't drive or change country (but don't complain if you get hit by a oncoming car)

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[-] MedicPigBabySaver@lemmy.world 13 points 3 weeks ago

Loser. Pay up! Put your phone away.

[-] infinitesunrise@slrpnk.net 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Meanwhile in NYC they're only allowed to put traffic cameras in school zones, they're speed-based only, the fine is like $100, and drivers can rack up dozens of tickets without any consequence to the standing of their drivers license.

I dunno man, I feel like there's a happy medium in traffic enforcement automation between these two extremes? It's almost as if stuff like the Georgia example exists to provide ammunition to the opponents in NYC who successfully defanged traffic cameras up there. With a thin veneer over the top that this is about surveillance.

Flock cameras, AI surveillance, etc is bad. But the specific examples and criticisms being brought up, like this one, feel very disingenuous in the face of how many Americans die to distracted drivers every year. Like are we actually pushing back against AI state surveillance, or are we defending the "right" of motorists to be wildly dangerous to those around them?

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[-] MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Like I said on a similar thread - we already lost our feedom. They're just installing the shackles now.

[-] 0x0@lemmy.zip 11 points 3 weeks ago

For your safety.™

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this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2026
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