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submitted 1 year ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

“I will be asking the attorney general’s office for their input,” Secretary of State David Scanlan told the Globe. “And ultimately whatever is decided is probably going to require some judicial input.”

A debate among constitutional scholars over former president Donald Trump’s eligibility for the 2024 presidential race has reverberated through the public consciousness in recent weeks and reached the ears of New Hampshire’s top election official.

Secretary of State David Scanlan, who will oversee the first-in-the-nation presidential primary in just five months, said he’s received several letters lately that urge him to take action based on a legal theory that claims the Constitution empowers him to block Trump from the ballot.

Scanlan, a Republican, said he’s listening and will seek legal advice to ensure that his team thoroughly understands the arguments at play.

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[-] Nougat@kbin.social 134 points 1 year ago

14th Amendment to the US Constitution, Section 3:

Section 3 Disqualification from Holding Office

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

This does not require judicial input. The language is clear. Trump is, along with many co-defendants, disqualified from holding any civil or military office.

[-] OldWoodFrame@lemm.ee 29 points 1 year ago

The judicial input is on whether Trump qualifies to be included in that described group which is disqualified. The problem with the self-executing clause here is that of course the described group of people are barred but who decides who qualifies?

[-] Nougat@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

That is for state officials whose duty it is to ensure that only qualified persons are on the ballot to enforce. Indeed, if those state officials refuse or neglect to enforce the US Constitution, they could be held personally responsible.

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[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 27 points 1 year ago

Not until proven guilty, legally speaking, surely?

[-] Nougat@kbin.social 51 points 1 year ago

The language specifically does not require any conviction. A conviction would make 14A S3 undeniably apply, but a lack of conviction doesn't make it not apply.

[-] iAmTheTot@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

You kinda just said that it can be denied that it applies without a conviction. I think it's tenuous at best, but I'm not a lawyer. I just know that, typically, you can't say someone did a thing if it hasn't been legally proven.

[-] Nougat@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

If the amendment had required a conviction of some kind, that requirement would have been stated. It is not.

[-] Dkarma@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Sure you can. Trump is a rapist. He raped e jean Carrol with his fingers. Wasn't convicted but facts are facts.

The Jan 6th commission is enough to show he participated in an insurrection.

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[-] RoboRay@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago

It doesn't say "convicted of...".

[-] Bipta@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I doubt they put every Confederate on trial. Still I imagine there must be some court ruling for this to be the case. IANAL but a state court may make this decision and bar him from running in their state.

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 22 points 1 year ago

"But that was only an amendment and it was written so long ago!" - Somebody with the second amendment printed out and framed above their gun masturbatorium.

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[-] flipht@kbin.social 16 points 1 year ago

And his remedy is a two thirds vote qualifying him.

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[-] Kinglink@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Trump is, along with many co-defendants, disqualified from holding any civil or military office.

Want to prove that? Last I checked he's not been found guilty of any crime?

Would you support this if it was Biden or Hillary in the same legal situation? How about we respect the judicial proceeding and stop trying to jump the gun, before it's made into a political maneuver?

[-] Moobythegoldensock@lemm.ee 46 points 1 year ago

The amendment does not require formal conviction of a crime, and after the Civil War it was used extensively without formal convictions.

And obviously we’d support that if Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden tried to stage a coup. Would sort of insane bozo would still support a candidate after that?

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[-] huginn@feddit.it 23 points 1 year ago

We should definitely respect the judicial process.

... But I'd absolutely support this if Biden or Hilary were in the same situation.

[-] flipht@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They're telling you that it isn't written to require criminal guilt determined by a court.

The entire south seceded. Those people were not tried, and in fact were given blanket pardons. But they still couldn't hold office again.

This is a political process. It will be political, same as an impeachment.

[-] mustardman@discuss.tchncs.de 15 points 1 year ago

Trump was literally dancing during the insurrection and there is a video of it. Dude was gleefully happy about one of the darkest days in American history.

It's not jumping the gun, you just have your head in the sand.

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[-] Dkarma@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

It doesn't say found guilty. Read the Constitution. It's plain.

[-] Nougat@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

If it is true that either of them "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [United States], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof," then yes.

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[-] iHUNTcriminals@lemm.ee 40 points 1 year ago

I'm in NH. We still have people out on the corner with Trump flags.

NH is the Florida of the north.

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[-] flossdaily@lemmy.world 39 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm glad this is getting the attention it deserves right now, but this issue should have been front page news THE DAY Trump announced he was running.

"Donald Trump announces new bid for presidency, but may not qualify"

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[-] randon31415@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Parties are parties. The republican party could have a squid reach for ballons with candidates names on them to choose their nominee. The only thing that the consitution disqualifies him is running in the general.

Of course, if the Republicans had a rule saying only valid candidates for general can run in the primary, then there is trouble, as he won't get disqualified until after the trial, which is after the primary.

[-] SheeEttin@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

The NH AG, John Formella, seems like a party man. I would be surprised if he would agree with this argument, especially in the administration of Chris "I'm a Trump guy through and through" Sununu.

[-] radix@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

Be especially wary of Republicans who are pushing this "ineligible even without judicial input" argument. Many of them would love to rid themselves of the Trump albatross, but even more, would LOOOOVE the idea of simply declaring people ineligible with no oversight.

To most people, Trump's involvement in Jan 6 is obvious, but without a conviction, the door is wide open for people like DeSantis and his lackies to just start erasing names off the contender list with the thinnest of justifications. "Oh, Biden supports the Paris Climate Accords. He doesn't believe in American sovereignty, which is tantamount to treason, therefore he won't be on the Florida ballot in 2024."

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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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