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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Want to prove that? Last I checked he's not been found guilty of any crime?
Would you support this if it was Biden or Hillary in the same legal situation? How about we respect the judicial proceeding and stop trying to jump the gun, before it's made into a political maneuver?
The amendment does not require formal conviction of a crime, and after the Civil War it was used extensively without formal convictions.
And obviously we’d support that if Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden tried to stage a coup. Would sort of insane bozo would still support a candidate after that?
The sort of insane bozo that is every member of the GOP. If the Dems ever try to regain power in my state, I am going to loudly demand ranked-choice voting and non-partisan redistricting as state constitutional amendments. I care more about the possibility of a representative government than I do about permanently cementing my party's dominance forever.
The right always acts like it's some big gotcha "what about Biden/Hillary/whatever". They don't realize that most of the left has little emotional attachment to "their" politicians and if anything, a lot of Democrat politicians are simply adequate. Sometimes they're straight up the lesser of two evils.
But even when politicians are beloved, I don't think the left is nearly as fanatical of unwilling to change their minds. Eg, Obama in 2008 was huge. He had a massive cult following and I remember being really hopeful for him myself. But he ended up being kinda lackluster. The ACA was an improvement over the then-status quo, but as a Canadian, I always viewed the ACA as a laughably half hearted attempt at reform. And oof, the warmongering? Nobody on the left shys away from hiding that unfortunate fact about Obama.
The right treats their political leaders like they treat their pastors - with reverence and deference. The left occasionally has an Obama that captures imaginations for a while, but at this point everything is so fucked that most lefties just want pols that don't use hate and fear, and that will avoid entering into wars that have no honest justification. You're correct, though. One of my greatest joys of the Biden admin is simply NOT HEARING THE PRESIDENT every day. Or relaxing a bit because we're back to our normal level of US fuckery, rather than malicious, hate-dripping drivel fuckery shot out the tiny little asshole mouth of Trump. Would I like concrete change? Sure! Is there a damn thing I can do about it? Nope! I live in a gerrymandered-forever state and I have zero hope of things getting better, though I will keep voting even though my vote doesn't matter for anything at all, despite people who vote like me being vastly greater in number than the red fucks.
If you were devoted to democracy and the constitution, then you're remember that in this country there's a presumption of innocence, as well as right to a trial. But I mean you must know that since you're so devoted right?
And thinking I'm a Trump supporter because I simply want him to legally be found guilty before we bar him from public office... I guess if you aren't completely on your side, then you must be an enemy, kind of a shitty way to live your life, but you do you.
I watched it live. I don't need a court to tell me what I already know. And neither should you. If the evidence wasn't so damn clear it might require subpoenas or evidentiary rulings to find out the truth but we do not need any of it. He's on tape working to overthrow the election. Why do YOU need more?
There is no "right" to aspire to elected office, or to hold one.
And disqualification from office is not a criminal punishment.
The constitution isn't a law. All laws I've read describe the punishment for breaking the law. The constitution does not. The government can't limit speech (within bounds). The government can't limit guns (within bounds). The government can't allow insurrectionists to run the government.
We should definitely respect the judicial process.
... But I'd absolutely support this if Biden or Hilary were in the same situation.
They're telling you that it isn't written to require criminal guilt determined by a court.
The entire south seceded. Those people were not tried, and in fact were given blanket pardons. But they still couldn't hold office again.
This is a political process. It will be political, same as an impeachment.
Trump was literally dancing during the insurrection and there is a video of it. Dude was gleefully happy about one of the darkest days in American history.
It's not jumping the gun, you just have your head in the sand.
It is. I'm sorry your opinion of this shit doesn't matter. Legally he's allowed to run for president, the minute he's not he should be stripped of it. It's not your decision it's the courts.
It’s not a court’s decision, it’s a matter for the official deciding who is eligible to be on the ballot, following the constitution. Of course it can be challenged in court, like just about everything else.
Just remember that when a Democrat gets removed because some official decided who was eligible...
You clearly don't see the red flag or the future problem, but I'll keep repeating it in the hope some piece of it will get through to one of you.
IT IS IN THE FUCKING CONSTITUTION, DUDE. READ IT. Oh, let's just ignore that we have a 1st Amendment (or 2d Amendment, if that floats your boat more), and fuck the 4th and 5th Amendment too, since the Rehnquist court forward has fucked them both so hard. The 14th Amendment was broadly written to keep insurrectionists from gaining power. The court CAN be involved, to consider challenges to an election official's act or lack of action. But no court is initially involved.
And if a democrat was an insurrectionist, they SHOULD be prevented from taking office. And if a fuckhead election official decides to call a Dem an insurrectionist for no reason at all? Their act would be subject to judicial scrutiny.
If an insurrectionist Democrat gets removed as per the constitution, good. Typical Republican thinking that I'm backing a team.
Anyway, the problem is current, is addressed by the 14th amendment and is, once again, not a court's decision.
It doesn't say found guilty. Read the Constitution. It's plain.
If it is true that either of them "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [United States], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof," then yes.
Again that's for the courts to decide, not random posters on the internet.
Once He's convicted, you're correct. But no what "Nougat thinks" doesn't matter.
It's not for the courts to decide. If it were, there would be a court-based requirement in the amendment. There is not.
It is a disqualification from office, just as being under the age of 35 is a disqualification from the office of president. No court ruling is required.
Edit: Other people who agree with me:
Ok, so hey, Biden said something that sounded seditious... I guess we'll bar him from running for office... oh don't worry about it, just trust me he said it....
See why it IS a matter for the courts and not just something random people should be allowed to decide? Or again, do you want this to be wielded as a weapon in the next election against politicians you favor... Because it will. Legally prove him guilty before banning him, otherwise you look like he's something to fear, and that will only bring more support to his side... but hey, you know I'm sure this will ONLY matter this one election and never be used again or weaponized... That's exactly how things like this work, right?.... right?
Are you going to ignore the long list of legal scholars he posted? Yeah? Ok, you're not arguing in good faith.
Four scholars... I'm pretty sure we can find four scholars to agree with pretty much anything, but go on. Appeal to authority is still a logical fallacy.
Well, if Biden ever incites an attack on the Capitol with the goal of overturning the election, then we can bar him from office.
Happy?
Actually, in law, appeal to authority is how the law fucking works. If there's controlling authority, great. If there's non-controlling authority that is particularly well thought out, that authority might be adopted whole cloth, or with some caveats. A law journal article, for example, was the source of the "transformation" standard for derivative works under copyright law.
Except you can't find four legal scholars that agree with you.
Again, if there was a requirement for a conviction, 14A S3 would specify it. It does not.
In case it wasn't clear enough, the Federalist Society is THE (with capitals T,H,E) society for republican jurists and their members are movers and shakers of the world. I'm not from the US but the influence of US policy permeates into every aspect of life everywhere.