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this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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14th Amendment to the US Constitution, Section 3:
This does not require judicial input. The language is clear. Trump is, along with many co-defendants, disqualified from holding any civil or military office.
The judicial input is on whether Trump qualifies to be included in that described group which is disqualified. The problem with the self-executing clause here is that of course the described group of people are barred but who decides who qualifies?
That is for state officials whose duty it is to ensure that only qualified persons are on the ballot to enforce. Indeed, if those state officials refuse or neglect to enforce the US Constitution, they could be held personally responsible.
Not until proven guilty, legally speaking, surely?
The language specifically does not require any conviction. A conviction would make 14A S3 undeniably apply, but a lack of conviction doesn't make it not apply.
You kinda just said that it can be denied that it applies without a conviction. I think it's tenuous at best, but I'm not a lawyer. I just know that, typically, you can't say someone did a thing if it hasn't been legally proven.
If the amendment had required a conviction of some kind, that requirement would have been stated. It is not.
Sure you can. Trump is a rapist. He raped e jean Carrol with his fingers. Wasn't convicted but facts are facts.
The Jan 6th commission is enough to show he participated in an insurrection.
It doesn't say "convicted of...".
I doubt they put every Confederate on trial. Still I imagine there must be some court ruling for this to be the case. IANAL but a state court may make this decision and bar him from running in their state.
"But that was only an amendment and it was written so long ago!" - Somebody with the second amendment printed out and framed above their gun masturbatorium.
The gun Masturbatorium is a sacred workshop of Cult Masturbatio of the Adeptus Mechanicus, they are in charge of "Jacking" the most ancient and revered ranged weapons. Youre thinking of the Techno-lustris run jointly by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Dark Mechanicum.
And his remedy is a two thirds vote qualifying him.
Want to prove that? Last I checked he's not been found guilty of any crime?
Would you support this if it was Biden or Hillary in the same legal situation? How about we respect the judicial proceeding and stop trying to jump the gun, before it's made into a political maneuver?
The amendment does not require formal conviction of a crime, and after the Civil War it was used extensively without formal convictions.
And obviously we’d support that if Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden tried to stage a coup. Would sort of insane bozo would still support a candidate after that?
The right always acts like it's some big gotcha "what about Biden/Hillary/whatever". They don't realize that most of the left has little emotional attachment to "their" politicians and if anything, a lot of Democrat politicians are simply adequate. Sometimes they're straight up the lesser of two evils.
But even when politicians are beloved, I don't think the left is nearly as fanatical of unwilling to change their minds. Eg, Obama in 2008 was huge. He had a massive cult following and I remember being really hopeful for him myself. But he ended up being kinda lackluster. The ACA was an improvement over the then-status quo, but as a Canadian, I always viewed the ACA as a laughably half hearted attempt at reform. And oof, the warmongering? Nobody on the left shys away from hiding that unfortunate fact about Obama.
The right treats their political leaders like they treat their pastors - with reverence and deference. The left occasionally has an Obama that captures imaginations for a while, but at this point everything is so fucked that most lefties just want pols that don't use hate and fear, and that will avoid entering into wars that have no honest justification. You're correct, though. One of my greatest joys of the Biden admin is simply NOT HEARING THE PRESIDENT every day. Or relaxing a bit because we're back to our normal level of US fuckery, rather than malicious, hate-dripping drivel fuckery shot out the tiny little asshole mouth of Trump. Would I like concrete change? Sure! Is there a damn thing I can do about it? Nope! I live in a gerrymandered-forever state and I have zero hope of things getting better, though I will keep voting even though my vote doesn't matter for anything at all, despite people who vote like me being vastly greater in number than the red fucks.
We should definitely respect the judicial process.
... But I'd absolutely support this if Biden or Hilary were in the same situation.
They're telling you that it isn't written to require criminal guilt determined by a court.
The entire south seceded. Those people were not tried, and in fact were given blanket pardons. But they still couldn't hold office again.
This is a political process. It will be political, same as an impeachment.
Trump was literally dancing during the insurrection and there is a video of it. Dude was gleefully happy about one of the darkest days in American history.
It's not jumping the gun, you just have your head in the sand.
It doesn't say found guilty. Read the Constitution. It's plain.
If it is true that either of them "engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the [United States], or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof," then yes.
Most of the legal minds I've heard discuss this think it's pretty interesting philosophically, but not at all actionable. Former US attorneys Preet Bharara and Chuck Rosenberg mentioned it in a recent podcast that I found super insightful.
Here's the tiny mention in there:
Except that it very clearly is self-executing. I'll paste it in here again for easy reference:
Breaking it down:
What is the disqualification from office stated in the section title? "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, ..."
Who does this apply to? Anyone "who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."
What is the remediation for this disqualification? "Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability."
As a comparison, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 reads:
If a 23 year old Frenchman decided to run for US President, what would happen? Would there need to be some kind of trial or judicial review? No - state officials would disqualify Mr. Young French from appearing on the ballot. And then, if Mr. Young French wanted to protest that decision, he would initiate a court filing, after having been disqualified.
14A S3 is self-executing. The reason Rosenberg in the podcast says he's "not sure what the triggering mechanism would be" is because there isn't one.
The only reason it isn't actionable is because the SCOTUS's current concept of standing leaves entire provisions of the Constitution unenforceable. If no one has standing to sue for an unconstitutional act or omission, then it renders the provision meaningless. Which is absolute and utter bullshit. Every single election official that lets Trump on the ballot should be sued in federal court seeking a writ of mandamus forcing them to follow the requirements set upon them under the Constitution.
This is an easy one for anyone capable of critical thinking and knows "innocent until proven guilty".
He hasn't been convicted of anything, only accused.
14A S3 does not require a conviction.
Bullshit. Otherwise you could just accuse your political rivals of crimes to prevent them from running.
You need to go back to internet lawyer school.
Can you show me which part of the 14th amendment, section three, requires a conviction of any kind?
Disqualification from office is not a criminal punishment.
Edit: Protip: The full text of 14A S3 is posted at the very beginning of this thread.
Can you show me in any part of the constitution where it says any civil punishment or penalty requires a conviction? Can a right wing DA accuse Hillary of the same crimes and remove her eligibility to office?
Not without a conviction.