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I had much more toxic behavior at reddit, but it is hard to imagine any safe space online anywhere.
Lemmy is a relatively small and niche platform, imo small platforms tend to be like that. First men show up, then transfems, and then cis women. We seem to be at the second stage and while things can be done better (like a female only instance) I do think things will get better.
In Mastodon, this is typically solved with defederation, block lists, and admins enforcing mod policies. How come this approach doesn't work for Lemmy? Is it not decentralized enough?
Yes. Just look at .world. As long as world is still federated into other communities, the fediverse is not federated.
Is there anything others can do to help? Feddit.uk wouldn't tolerate this but I'm not sure what a regular user can do apart from look out for harassment, call it out and report promptly
wait, what? we have women in here? where?
I do get the joke; Even so, to this post's credit, that this comment [at time of writing] is +3 is a great representation of their challenges.
The whole point is about people feeling legitimate using the platform. Jokes feeding on the trope "there aren't women on the Internet" reinforces alienation. It makes sense they wouldn't feel comfortable if dismissal is the community upvoted response to them -already- feeling unwelcome.
I really don't see how upvoting a silly joke is a representation of anything.
It was solely meant for some giggles, to relax the conversation about a serious topic a slight bit. If you will, it's more like karma whoring [no pun intended].
Understandable! Apologies if I came across overly chastising towards you specifically.
Instent vs impact is pretty hard in this case. Part of my response is from conversations with friends in STEM fields and the impacts of the male centric nature of the space (comp sci especially) has on them. Especially with how much men self-reinforce that position. It truly is an exclusionary space for them.
I hadn't read as many comments in this thread yet and there are some well thought out discussions here too, which I'm glad to read.
There's nothing to apologize for, really, you weren't harsh and certainly not towards me specifically. You even acknowledged the joke, and just stated your opinion, which I simply don't fully agree with.
I can't remotely relate to the struggles some women have to go through in male-dominated fields.
I'm a software developer myself, by passion, and I have had some female coworkers with whom I had been designated on projects. And TBH, it never occurred to me to treat them any differently than male coworkers. Also, as far as I could tell, none of the other male coworkes treated them differently either.
So, just because there are some men out there acting like a douchebag by giving women a hard time to feel included in a field, doesn't mean the world is full of these people. They're simply more conspicuous, than the others.
Now, is this a cultural thing, that depends on the country one lives in? Or does it depend on the size of the company one works for? Maybe, I don't know! I'm not a researcher/psychologist to provide any meaningful insight into this issue, since I neither can't relate on a personal level, nor have I witnessed it.
All I can do, is either just continue scrolling, or, if I'm in the mood, post some silly joke to (hopefully) make at least one person giggle while reading through the comments.
PS: I really like the richness in your vocabulary.
Keep in mind that this is probably very instance dependend. I use Beehaw which generally does not tolerate this sort of thing and this expectation is stated very clearly. For us down voting is not even possible. We also do not federate with nodes that cause the biggest issues. So there are things that can be done but it is not perfect and has consequences.
Just mentioning.
Edit: Even with that, there has been discussion of Beehaw leaving the threadiverse due to these issues and lack of mature moderation tools. Not sure where that stands.
And this I why I don't either
relevant discussions:
- !lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world true colors: https://lemmy.cafe/post/10574267
- incredible find: https://lemmy.cafe/post/10217719
- epic ratio: https://lemmy.cafe/post/9597634
- lemmy is a worse platform for women than reddit was: https://lemmy.cafe/post/4821164
this issue of such a massive proportion can only be solved with intention—it’s not getting fixed by accident. recognizing the problem is the first step.
I'm not quiet about being a woman, but have yet to receive dms or inappropriate responses or dismissals due to that fact (via lemmy).
EDIT: although elsewhere in this post's comment section I just received such a dismissal by someone who thought I was a man. Indeed, this is the direction in gender space along which I am used to experiencing such behavior, and it is why I have chosen to emphasize the fact that I am a female with a vagina so much in recent years: to get women to stop harassing me.
So I'll shout it out here: I'm a woman, if anyone has a problem with that or just wants to talk about it, please reach out.
I want to help solve the problem but I need to see it better first. I only ever see cherry-picked examples like you have collected here instead of seeing it in the wild. Don't get me wrong, the cherry-picked examples are bad, but I need more than a handful of outliers to really understand the problem and where it comes from before I can understand what I can do to help.
these aren’t cherry picked? these are quite normal—that’s why i started collecting them because they were so easy to find.
i respect your expression of experience of not having been on the receiving end of this that much—i will thank you to respect mine!
I do want to respect your experience and help to address the root problems leading to it.
That's why I am asking and engaging in this conversation: to be better informed and to help others subvert hate in this hate-filled time.
I'm also an odd case, as an intersex person who was socially raised (predominantly) male but in recent years transitioned to female mostly to avoid harassment. I get so much less hate when I'm perceived as a woman that your experience is somewhat foreign to me. Whether presenting as a man or as a woman, I get hate overwhelmingly from women. Women in our society are hate-filled and angry and don't know how to process emotions like discomfort caused by their intersexphobia nearly as well as men do.
A curated collection of the worst examples meets the definition of cherry picking. Cherry picking doesn't mean that your argument is invalid, just that there is missing context from the rest of the distribution of interactions. Any sufficiently large community will have enough assholes that bad behavior can be cherry picked from the extreme end of the distribution to be used as examples if someone wants to paint the whole community in a bad light.
That said, the extreme and cherry-picked examples are still a problem that need to be taken seriously. My life is an extreme and cherry-picked example that runs counter to the common narrative from "feminists" who think that blocking and ostracizing dissenting voices is a solution, instead of recognizing that reaction as exclusive and anti-diversity. I understand that extreme/unusual or cherry-picked examples need to be taken seriously and considered as edge cases. I am not trying to dismiss you, although my word choice last night maybe could have been more explicit on this point. I'm sorry. What I'm trying to communicate is that I need to better understand the problem (in context) to be able to help be part of the solution.
We need a better solution, and I want to help work towards that. I believe that starts with discussions like this one.
Yeah okay thanks i guess it just comes off really not nice for you to say that.
if you posted a list of the worst incidents in your experience of abuse, i truly doubt you would love my response to be calling you a cherry picker. even if you don’t mean it, it looks like siding with the abuser. it’s NOT cherry picking to tell my literal own damn story of what i deal with. if you truly mean differently, maybe choose different words
Any list of my experiences of abuse is a fundamentally cherry-picked list because my experiences are so far outside (what feminists claim to be) the norm.
I am explicitly calling myself a cherry picker and would have no problem with you doing the same. Everyone else sees my problems that way. It's just the truth.
I mean what I said.
EDIT: and to be clear, that includes my statement that even cherry-picked examples need to be taken seriously, however within proper context. I see that you've already downvoted me and probably moved on. I'm taking your lived experiences seriously, and you aren't taking mine seriously. I hope you will reconsider if you actually want to solve the root of the problems that we both are experiencing.
This situation seems to have spiraled a bit—I logged off for a few hours and came back to a bunch of DMs from you.
I want to make it clear that I don’t have any hard feelings toward you. However, this conversation has reached a point where it’s no longer productive.
You wouldn’t go to the comments of a person of color as they share their experiences and feelings about racism and say, “I only ever see cherry-picked examples like you have here.” But that’s essentially what you said to me about gender-based abuse. That kind of comment is: a) dismissive and encourages others to doubt the stories of victims, and b) a conversation-ender.
What you communicated to me is that my lived experience isn’t enough for you. As someone with a normal life and not a researcher, I have no way to provide the additional “data” you seem to require.
I am a male with a penis but it is a very feminine penis and I stand in solidarity with your vagina. In fact,. Ny.penis' name is Cassandra, which is neither here nor there but it is indeed a fact.
Being serious for a moment though: I agree with your rational approach here. I have found Lemmy to be more hostile than reddit overall, and while I condemn hostility based on gender or race (I very much applaud hostility based on religion though) I think we NEED THIS SO FUCKING BADLY.
The entire internet has become a bland cesspool of meaningless garbage. I think the current state of things has proven that what inevitably begins as a laudable attempt to stomp out hhate speech (which I condemn) the window invariably gets wider and wider until meaningful dialogue is silenced.
We should be very fucking hostile towards Nazis. We should be hostile towards avaricious governments and unchecked human greed. We should be hostile towards proselytization, and anyone that cant understand that freedom FROM religion is as, or more important than, freedom OF religion. And while I can see the need to ban outright calls for violence as being necessary, the ubiquity of iron-clad moderation makes me very concerned about what will happen when there is a legitimate need to react against violent acts from entrenched power systems towards the oppressed.
While the comments here about "go make your own instance" are dismissive, I do agree with then in spirit. I want to participate in communities that eschew group think and promote real dialoguue. Especially dialogue I don't agree with.
The power of the fediverse is that if someone wants to copy the bland corporate safe space that is the rest of the internet there is fuck all stopping them.
Hard agree about it being worse then Reddit. It's gotten to the point where I don't engage as much as I want to and thinking about going back to Reddit. I'm sure there are people that would like that.
Oh God I remember seeing that "incredible find" comment in the wild and being like, "What the fuck? Who thinks like that?"
All I get is "unable to connect"
Ironic
and the number of upvotes 🤮 there is so much work to do and so many awful people out there
I do agree that the reports and downvotes of topics geared toward women are very widespread which is exhausting, and can make it hard to talk about the things you want to. Most of the virulent, misogynistic comments get removed quickly but often the damage is already done by then. I have learned over the years on the internet that sometimes I should let womens', trans' and other races' people's spaces be their spaces, and check carefully if whatever I have to say really adds to the conversation or just minimizes/drowns out the opinions of the minority audience the community is for. So I have had the urge to participate but have backed off. I'm a bit torn because the lack of activity can also make a community feel unwelcoming, but I am concerned that even my most well-intentioned comments could have a blind spot or inherent bias that makes it also unwelcoming.
The solution I see is that a woman safe-space instance is needed, whose admins ban misogony, unhelpful comments and reports, mass downvoting etc., to the point where some might feel the actions are like PTB. Beehaw has a strict moderation stance, they even defedded from lemmy.world due to the amount of toxicity they had to deal with, but they are able to curate a more welcoming experience. We are still "early days of Reddit", it will take time and effort from users of all genders to make it a better place.
I run a few communities that I would consider to be fairly women-oriented, or at least I would expect them to be interested. I do not expect many men to be interested, and hey that's okay. I welcome anyone who wants to, but no harm if it's not your thing.
But any post that gets made gets downvoted to hell. I routinely have to moderate and remove posts of "Why is this here" and "This is stupid" even though there are people who enjoy it, they are just swarmed by other commenters, and it's made my members less active.
It's pretty clear how people vote and act here, I'm coming up on 2 years here and it's been like how you'd expect. Downvotes don't mean "I don't think this adds to the conversation" or "This is appropriate", they mean "I personally don't like this" here, and I think that kills a lot of our smaller communities.
Thanks for running those communities. I try to post to one of them where I can (I.e., make memes), but I’m not really a content creator. I just like to lurk in comments and respond when I feel like it’s worth me putting in my opinion or effort.
I’m aligned with your perspective. Hard to create or promote content when people downvote it due to hive mind. It’s discouraging and unwelcoming because it sends the signal “why is this here, you don’t belong in Lemmy”.
Thank you, Zoomies, that means a lot, honestly. I'm not one either, but I try to keep them going. I see the upvotes, people enjoy it, but I think many are a bit nervous to comment, but it'll grow eventually. I'm going to put some time on this over the next week to automate something I think
One thing I need to do is try to comment more. Hard to come up with stuff to say. And I’m one of those folks that types stuff, then second guesses it and backs out from posting.
I upvote what I can, but that’s always bare minimum effort. Consistent commenting is much more effort. And the extremely hard part is making original posts along with memes. I have no idea how Picard Maneuver does it. Bro carries Lemmy on his back alone lol.
I appreciate when you do, and I think others do too. One of the things I had to do was just stop caring about what other people thought. If they liked it, they'd upvote, or maybe they'd downvote, but no matter what you're adding to the conversation. I just dump out whatever I'm thinking now!
I do have to step up my meme game tho
Exactly why my instance has downvotes disabled
I deeply appreciate your decision to do that :3
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One of my first experiences on Lemmy was a bunch of mens rights activists celebrating a women's tech job fair being overrun by men.
I'm not surprised that this is a problem. Lemmy's main demographic is the tech obsessed, that's always going to be filled with misogynistic neckbeards.
Don't say always.
It's defeatist.
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this post was submitted on 25 Jan 2025
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