297
Oops all Mushrooms (lemmy.world)
submitted 5 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) by Stamets@lemmy.world to c/tenforward@lemmy.world

And always gonna be. Go cry about it some more

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[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 74 points 5 days ago

It isn't the mushroom drive that made Discovery bad, it's that Starfleet apparently no longer has any kind of standards.

TOS and TNG had all kinds of "woke" politics for their era, but they portrayed them as happening on a military vessel. People were calm, competent and followed the chain of command. The only time that broke down is when they were under the influence of some kind of alien disease or tech.

Discovery's crew was full of whiny, fragile people that were barely able to do their jobs for all the time they spent obsessing about their personal problems. Tilly is the prime example of this. The "Tilly" equivalent in TNG was Reginald Barclay. Shy, stressed, lacking self confidence, etc. Barclay's character arc makes sense for Star Trek. He is able to save the day, but he's certainly not promoted because it's clear that the senior officers on the show are calm, competent and project confidence. He's basically there to show that not all Star Trek characters are the confident, competent, brave people who make up the bridge crew. And, by doing that they emphasize how elite the bridge crew is. Meanwhile, on Discovery, Tilly is promoted and keeps gaining responsibility despite never addressing these gaping character flaws. The "Tilly" message seems to be something like "it doesn't matter if you're weird, awkward and unable to communicate competently, as long as you love and accept yourself, you too deserve to be on the bridge making life or death decisions".

Discovery also fails because that lack of competence is everywhere in the crew. The original shows had the crew acting as... well a crew. They'd tackle problems together. In TOS Kirk would lead the charge, but he'd never do anything on his own. Spock was stronger and smarter than anybody else, but he followed the lead of his commander. McCoy handled the medical stuff. Scotty handled engineering. In Discovery, Burnham is apparently the only competent person on the crew, and the only one not to be fazed when something bad happens, so rather than the crew working together to solve issues, it's superhero Burnham while the crew faints dramatically. The only real exceptions to that are Saru (whose personality doesn't really make sense given what they explain about his species), and Commander Reno, who is a breath of fresh air because she's basically the only one who isn't constantly freaking out -- although the sarcasm and fatalism of her character is almost too much.

What makes it all worse is that the backdrop is that the universe is doomed and only Discovery can save it. Sure, the other Treks have had major threats to the universe, but they were being slow-rolled over a long season, or sometimes multiple seasons. They had room to breathe and do episodes that didn't advance the plot. That gave them a time to do episodes focused on fleshing out the personality of a member of the crew, to do silly things, etc. Discovery has the whiniest, least professional crew that has ever crewed a starship (and I'm including Boimler and friends), who are whining while dealing with the most urgent apocalyptic scenarios. It's a soap opera while the end of the world is playing out.

[-] turmacar@lemmy.world 19 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I regret that I have but one upvote to give to this comment.

The only addition I have is the glorification/growth of Section 31. They were introduced as the baddies because they are the antithesis of what the Federation is. As a foil they're at least a gateway to interesting variations on "do the ends justify the means" and ""are short term solutions acceptable while sacrificing long term ones". Which the Federation classically would answer with a resounding "No".

But sci-fi Black Ops is "cool" and The Expanse was popular so lets get on that bandwagon apparently. (I love The Expanse, but different things should be different.)

[-] MajorHavoc@programming.dev 9 points 4 days ago

Sure, the other Treks have had major threats to the universe, but they were being slow-rolled over a long season, or sometimes multiple seasons. They had room to breathe and do episodes that didn't advance the plot.

As a usual defender of Discovery - I absolutely agree here. CBS clearly wanted to do a Battlestar Galactica, just in case Star Trek was over.

As much as I like Discovery, I'll admit I'm sure I would like it more if they had settled down from the constant universe ending a bit more often.

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[-] BradleyUffner@lemmy.world 14 points 4 days ago

I had to stop watching when an alien got really sad that one time and that caused all the dilithium crystals in the galaxy to blow up. It was just... Dumb.

[-] T156@lemmy.world 10 points 4 days ago

At the same time, it was a very TOS plot and resolution, and Discovery is based on that.

Charlie X was a child who would have blown up the entire Federation, because he was upset that people told him "no".

Lazarus nearly detonated the entire universe, and for at least one moment, caused it to cease to exist.

Which doesn't gel with the post-TNG Trek, which is more scientifically grounded, but "child got given godlike powers and nearly wiped out the galaxy because they were upset" fits in perfectly with TOS. It's just missing a reset button to put everything to rights.

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[-] T156@lemmy.world 11 points 4 days ago

I feel like one of the main issues with Discovery is also that it's much more serialised, and more compact, to its detriment.

There wasn't an ambiguous downtime between adventures, or for things to happen off-screen, everything happened one after the other. We didn't have space to develop and explore the characters, basically everything was plot, which made the emotional parts feel unearned.

The characters were rarely more than the bare minimum to enable said plot.

It hugely needed downtime it didn't really get, and could have benefited from stretching out either the seasons or the episodes out to have them be more fleshed out and normal, instead of dealing with crisis after crisis after crisis. In all of three seasons, we had about a single segment of episode where they had any memorable recreation at all.

There was never an equivalent of the "The Doctor is a good singer, Worf hates children, Spock likes chess" moments for the Discovery characters to expand into between the big plot points. They don't really have long-term flaws, or room to grow for the most part.

Discovery also fails because that lack of competence is everywhere in the crew.

I'd actually disagree with you on discovery showing a lack of competence. If anything, besides the attitude, it felt more like the characters were too competent. They didn't have varied, specific flaws and weaknesses that made them seem more human, instead being universally omnicompetent.

Even TNG, otherwise a shining bastion of competency, worked best when the characters had individual flaws and weaknesses that they collectively mitigated by relying on each other, rather than everyone being perfect and good at everything.

Discovery lacks that kind of deferring to better expertise, and often comes across as Burnham does everything. Except when she's coming up with a plan that will fix everything, there was barely any consultation, or back and forth. There wasn't really ever a "I can think of something that could help, but have no idea how to execute it, anyone know how we might pull it off?", or "That's not a bad thought, but if we do it this other way, it might be better".

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 10 points 4 days ago

basically everything was plot, which made the emotional parts feel unearned.

Unearned, and also shoehorned in. They were in the middle of a series of crises, and instead of just putting the personal stuff to the side until the crisis/crises were over they had to deal with personal soap-opera stuff in the middle of that. And, that meant that you couldn't have personal character development that was low-stakes. For it to interrupt the crisis it had to be high stakes. That just heightened the soap-operaness because every emotional moment was high stakes.

Discovery lacks that kind of deferring to better expertise, and often comes across as Burnham does everything.

That's basically what I mean about the incompetence. She had to do everything herself rather than consult with the rest of the crew, often breaking the rules because she didn't have time to follow them because everything was so urgent. On every other Star Trek, the chief engineer would be consulted when it came to engineering things, the science officer when it came to science things, and so-on. But, because Burnham didn't consult her experts, it makes it seem like they're not competent enough to keep up with her.

So, these other crew members are involved when there's a high-stakes soap opera scene where they bare their souls. But, they're bypassed when Burnham has to take quick actions or the whole multiverse dies. Which makes it seem like this isn't a crew of a captain, a science officer and a chief engineer working together to solve things. It's a soap opera involving Tilly, Stamets, and Jett while Burnham saves the multiverse.

[-] PlainSimpleGarak@lemmings.world 7 points 4 days ago

This. All of this. Thank you.

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[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 54 points 5 days ago

People who whine about the silliness of some of the concepts in Discovery (spore drive, space-tardigrades) have never seen TOS.

[-] CarbonIceDragon@pawb.social 40 points 5 days ago

While I do generally enjoy discovery, I do think It's still pretty flawed. Not because of the spore stuff, but because of the way that they have to deal with so many "danger to the entire galaxy/universe/multiverse" type events back to back. Like, doing a few is fine, I generally enjoyed the xindi arc in Enterprise for example, but having so many starts to feel very forced after awhile.

I especially find that bit with the spore energy extractor in the mirror universe that could kill all life in the multiverse if not stopped jarring, because, if you have a potentially limitlessness number of alternative timelines, and the massive expanse of space, to develop that tech in, the odds that nobody else ever built one of these drops to essentially zero, except that the existence of the plot at all implies nobody else ever has.

[-] hallettj@leminal.space 16 points 5 days ago

Not because of the spore stuff, but because of the way that they have to deal with so many “danger to the entire galaxy/universe/multiverse” type events back to back. Like, doing a few is fine, I generally enjoyed the xindi arc in Enterprise for example, but having so many starts to feel very forced after awhile.

I totally agree. When the stakes are over the top it makes the universe feel small. When everything depends on one crew at all times it feels hard to believe there is a larger world they exist in in which to immerse my imagination. Discovery has fantastic characters, acting, directing, costumes, sets - I would love to see all these great features thrive without leaning on artificial plot tension. The main goal of any show is to make you care about what happens. Ideally you care because you feel a personal connection to the characters. But making the stakes huge, and including frequent ticking-clock scenarios is easier. The thing is I do care about these characters! The artifice is unnecessary!

But it got better the longer the show went on! I appreciate how every season the stakes got smaller, and more believable, and the pacing got less frantic especially in the last two seasons.

spoilers: de-escalating stakes each season

  • season 1: The entire Klingon war, and btw the existence of every possible universe is threatened.
  • season 2: All life is about to be wiped out, but only in one universe.
  • season 3: Is the Federation over? It's not clear if the dilithium crisis extends to other galaxies, but the stakes seem to be scoped to geopolitics in one quadrant.
  • season 4: Several planets are in danger. Still bigger stakes than I'd prefer, but there is much improvement over season 1.
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[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

Not because of the spore stuff, but because of the way that they have to deal with so many “danger to the entire galaxy/universe/multiverse” type events back to back

I find this complaint to be fairly flawed. It's like saying that it's exhausting to have to deal with a space station on DS9 all the time. That's just... the show. Discovery, the ship, was built to be a fast reaction vessel to respond to immediate and imminent threats. Why is it such a surprise that they do exactly that? It's like complaining that a special forces team is constantly dealing with dangerous missions. It's their job.

Every show has their own tone and flavor. Discovery's is the major threats. That's really all there is to it on that front. It's not wishwashy or bad writing. It's just the literal gimmick of the show.

Not liking it is fine but that specific complaint never really struck true for me.

odds that nobody else ever built one of these drops to essentially zero, except that the existence of the plot at all implies nobody else ever has.

It doesn't drop to essentially zero. Not all timelines are identical. Each has their own differences. Just because a Charon-type mycelial core was made elsewhere doesn't mean that those people didn't notice that issue or curtail it in their own universe. Question, do you have the same complaint about the finale of Lower Decks then? That's not dissimilar.

Edit: Downvote an opinion you disagree with while refusing to engage. Go replicate a spine, would you?

[-] ninja@lemmy.world 15 points 5 days ago

I'm not really sure what you're saying in the first part here. Not liking a show's gimmick is a completely acceptable reason to not like the show. You agreed that it was acceptable to dislike the gimmick but you don't like people citing the gimmick as the reason they didn't like the show?

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[-] BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world 13 points 4 days ago

If I've never seen them, they don't exist. Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks.. none of it. I'm safe and pure.

[-] Fades@lemmy.world 8 points 3 days ago

At least give lower decks a try if you’ve seen the rest of trek, the references alone make it fun to watch. It’s AU it doesn’t taint the cannon but it’s still trek and a good time

[-] BoxOfFeet@lemmy.world 1 points 3 days ago

From the clips I've seen, I can already tell you I don't like the character designs or the humor.

[-] sirblastalot@ttrpg.network 2 points 2 days ago

hissss it burns ussss

[-] Tin 15 points 4 days ago

Pop culture is mythology. You decide what's canon.

Aside: Y'all think the Egyptians ever had arguments over which version of Horus was canon?

[-] HasturInYellow@lemmy.world 7 points 4 days ago

Absolutely. In fact they definitely had wars about it.

[-] samus12345@lemm.ee 18 points 4 days ago

I try to console myself with the fact that Lower Decks is canon, too.

[-] VeganCheesecake 3 points 3 days ago

I don't care about Canon. Every Trek has done silly things that are then included, or ignored, based on the next writers whims.

What did annoy me was that it became less and less fun to watch. Neither the scripts nor the sets and backgrounds felt like they where done by people who liked the general ideas and vibes of star trek. Or maybe they just didn't share my idea for star trek.

Pretty much only sticked around because I liked Stamments, Culber, and Adira. For all it's failings, I did feel they nailed representation.

[-] Sanctus@lemmy.world 20 points 5 days ago

Remember when TOS had magic wand worms?

[-] PlasticExistence@lemmy.world 18 points 5 days ago

Remember when Spock tried to kill Kirk because he was sexually frustrated?

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 17 points 5 days ago

Remember when the USS Enterprise got pregnant?

[-] PlasticExistence@lemmy.world 15 points 5 days ago

Remember when Trip Tucker got pregnant?

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[-] ummthatguy@lemmy.world 24 points 5 days ago
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[-] electric@lemmy.world 23 points 5 days ago

Don't care. Still ignoring it exists.

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This might hurt your bones a bit:

MOOPSY IS CANON TOO

[-] zippythezigzag@lemm.ee 7 points 4 days ago

My wife and I are watching Star Trek for the first time ever. We're on the 4th season of The Next Generation. So I'm not "in the know". Should we not watch discovery when we get to that point? What's wrong with it?

[-] usernamefactory@lemmy.ca 11 points 4 days ago

I love Discovery. You should definitely give it a chance.

It's not perfect, and some of the complaints in this thread are completely valid, but I attribute the ferocity of the hate it gets more to the fact that it brought Trek back as a series after a very long hiatus, and took some pretty big swings as a result.

I was around when DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise were the new shows that "just didn't understand Star Trek," so from my perspective it's all very cyclical. Trek fans, as with most long-standing fandoms, don't all handle change very gracefully.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 4 points 4 days ago

Trek fans, as with most long-standing fandoms, don’t all handle change very gracefully.

Should be shouted at every comic-con by the Star Trek cast as a reminder.

[-] peregrin5@lemm.ee 2 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

I personally liked it a lot. I liked the fact that it broke from the style of the 90's Trek series and did something fresh. But that is exactly what a lot of Trek fans hated.

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 6 points 4 days ago

Honestly, it's just a different tone. That's about it. You should definitely watch it and decide for yourself whether you enjoy it, don't let other people online decide for you.

I will say that the first season is a little rough around the edges but all Star Trek shows are. It gets better as it goes on. Tone, acting, writing. It all takes a slight tonal shift in the second season. At least there's only 13ish episodes as opposed to the 24 of older shows.

[-] T4V0@lemmy.world 5 points 4 days ago

It's not wrong per se, it's just different. I don't particularly like Discovery and Picard, but they're ok. They don't have the same monster of the week approach as the others, and a lot of the other stuff has already been discussed here; lack of development of the crew and their relationship, the main character is constantly on focus while everyone else in the bridge is in rear view, no breathing room for proper character development, the orcs/klingons, etc.

I would rather watch Lower Decks, Prodigy or even The Orville. They're closer to what I like about Star Trek (though The Orville takes a bit to get there).

[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

Just watched Section 31.

Guess AI crap gets to be canon now. Mercurial Scottish crazy Vulcan bots, too.

[-] ininewcrow@lemmy.ca 15 points 5 days ago
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[-] marcos@lemmy.world 12 points 5 days ago

Why do people care about canon?

[-] sirico@feddit.uk 13 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)
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[-] Nonbinary_Sahrah 10 points 5 days ago

Everything except that one line about elon musk.

But in generall the concept of canon is completly overated. Like these are stories that are up to interpretation they not real. You can do what ever you want with that.

Its kind of interesting to see how some of those anti woke types loose their shit over this. (not just)

Anyways I can recommend jessie gender after dark's video on this subject relatong to trek

[-] Stamets@lemmy.world 9 points 5 days ago

Two lines. They had two elon musk lines and by far the worst part of the show

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[-] cm0002@lemmy.world 11 points 5 days ago

IMO they did a fantastic job reconciling why there's no mention of Discovery and it's fancy spore drive in the canon timeline. Launching them to the far future was probably the best decision

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this post was submitted on 23 Jan 2025
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