Lemmy reacts to a non-sexualized silly outfit pic in a totally normal way…
Previous posts in this series…
If people act like that on 196, please report it
goated mod 👑
yas qaz
"Italians do it better" is an intentional double entendre, so I feel moving to a more sexual commentary is not wholly out of the ballpark of reasonableness.
Fuck "Is this your first day on the internet" response, though, and the other two weird comments.
We really 95% male here, though? I thought it was more like 70-30.
Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s an obvious Madonna reference.
Wearing Madonna’s clothes is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification. Really, wearing any clothes should never be considered a sexual invitation without further context or permission.
Nope, rare PugJesus L I’m sorry. It’s not a double entendre, it’s an obvious Madonna reference.
... is it not a double-entendre when she wore it in that video? I've only ever heard it (and adaptations) used in the context of a double-entendre, and the song's lyrics and visuals don't seem to contradict any such interpretation. I mean, it's literally used in the scene where the boy who presumably impregnates the girl of the lyrics/video/Madonna's depiction first catches her eyes in a clear depiction of a sexually charged first meeting/attraction/whatever.
Wearing Madonna’s clothes, especially clothes that reference a pretty serious non-sexual video, is not a reasonable invitation to body objectification.
I mean, commenting on a rando's selfie that's not posted by said rando is so devoid of context that I often have trouble discerning what is and is not appropriate (regarding the behavior of the commenters, not myself - I generally don't have the urge to comment on said photos), so it's more of a general observation, but, absent all that, "Woman wearing a shirt with a sexualized message gets a sexualized joke directly related to the content of that message" does not seem, on a first reading, absurd, other than in general crassness that can be applied to sexualized jokes about people in any circumstance.
If she was uncomfortable with it, it would be unambiguously wrong instead of just lacking in context that would make it appropriate (ie an offense rather than a mistake). But, as I said - unless a rando's selfie is uploaded by said rando, there's no context, so my observation of whether the comment is appropriate is in a vacuum, and may not fit the context of the conversation or atmosphere of the comment thread.
(edited for clarifications)
Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.
(To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video. But if some in-universe character sexualized Madonna’s character in the video simply over the shirt it would still he inappropriate. Fans wear merch all the time, people wear revealing clothes all the time, and none of that gives an OK to sexualization.)
if someone wears a shirt specifically designed to draw attention to their larger than average breasts, perhaps people should not be surprised when people… yknow… pay attention to said breasts?
with that being said, the actual content of the comments, pretty gross and degrading… but the fact that the comments are about breasts should not be surprising in the slightest
paying attention ✅ good, fine, cutesey, demure, inside thoughts… but not what im talking about :)
making comments ❌ bad, objectification, gross and mean. this is what im talking about and we seem to agree. keep these thoughts inside unless given permission.
I'd like to point out that MOST SHIRTS with text on them have it over where the boobs would be, regardless of what that texts says
Okay… let’s back up. Forget the text on the shirt— A woman’s clothes do not make an invitation to objectification. Period. Other context might, but just clothes does not do it. Hope this is clear haha.
Sure, which is why context is important, and why rando selfies uploaded by someone other than the rando are difficult to place in context and pretty inherently uncomfortable to me. Sexual jokes about other people are also generally uncomfortable to me, but I also recognize that it's a form of humor that is not inherently illegitimate.
My point here is only that "On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt's sexual joke" is not entirely out of left field. There is a clear chain of thought that is not inherently absurd, not just "The first thing thought of when they saw a woman is 'comment on her breasts for no reason'". Your view is that he misread the context - that the context is NOT sexual and humorous, his view is that the context was sexual and humorous to begin with; mine is that these contextless selfies who aren't posted by the, uh, self, lend themselves to this kind of clash.
(To answer your question yes it is a double entendre in the video but this isn’t the video. Fans wear merch all the time, and merch that has suggestive content still doesn’t give an OK to sexualization.)
I know this is secondary to the main point, but I can't held but return to it - if it's a double entendre in the video and a double entendre in common usage, how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?
“On a pic of someone with a shirt with a sexual joke on it, a commenter makes a sexual joke related to the shirt’s sexual joke” is not entirely out of left field.
Okay agree. Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.
…how is its usage on the shirt not a double entendre?
It is, I just phrased it weird. Let me go edit it.
Okay agree.
Cool, we're in agreement. 🙏
It's not appropriate (as the context of the selfie originator is unavailable, and absent that context or other signifiers, any selfie should be assumed to be non-sexual), but it is dependent on an assumption of or misreading of context (presumably in good faith) rather than a sheer bloody-minded determination to give a passing woman the metaphorical wolf-whistle.
Just please approach this “well technically” rhetoric with caution. Can be easily misread, as I did, just in the opposite direction.
I mean, it's more than a technicality considering your response was to accuse him of having his first thought upon seeing a woman to comment on her breasts unprovoked. "This your first time on the internet?" implying that such comments are inherently acceptable is a dick response from him, so fuck him, but a defensive response of some sort was going to be inevitable given the (ha) context.
If I mess up cleaning a pan because I rarely use pans (tinfoil brigade reporting), messing up cleaning the pan is not made okay by the fact that I do it rarely (I should have been prepared, I should have been more attentive, etc), but if someone accuses me of having left the pan dirty on purpose, I will absolutely respond with vitriol, when otherwise I would have inquired as to what I did wrong or been apologetic (not to imply that that's the average response from someone objectifying someone else inappropriately, simply pointing out that IF they're reachable, they then become less reachable by that human reaction). Because then it's been transformed from a mistake to a deliberate offense.
Those are yucky comments anywhere other than an lemmynsfw community or a community with a suggestive name. I can't glean much context from this screenshot of the post but in general, I believe horniness should be kept to horny online places.
We can and should do much better than that.
based and kindnesspilled
Related to the previous posts bit, but I remember first seeing the Man vs. Bear memes.
I'll admit it was hard not to take it personally at first, because even if you agreed with the core of the message, it feels like you're being lumped in with the worst of menkind for no good reason. That's probably why the reaction was so toxic, because people just replied with their gut reaction, which was to take offence...
But upon giving it a bit of thought, I realised that as a guy who's lived in some dodgy areas, I think I too would oftentimes prefer to take my chances with a bear than alone with a stranger at night - not cause I think I'd beat the bear, but at least you know what the bear's probably gonna do...
And if I feel that way being a man, then considering (on average) women are weaker than men of the same build, I can see why women would feel that way too.
Indian metal band Bloodywood has the best take on the "all men" issue:
Not all men?
Yes all men!
Need all men for what we're solving
Can't be what it's been but we're evolving
The patriarchy privileges every man, which means every man needs to fight the system. If every man who hears the message and isn't an abuser stands up and does something, we can end the patriarchy. It's not "every man is guilty", it's "every man is responsible, and we can end it together."
And the rest of the song is about punching rapists.
this is so sick ty for sharing
Fuck every man for himself
It's every man for every man
And everybody else
Everybody else
I agree with this and I have absolutely no desire to undermine the problems that women face. However I think it is also important to understand how many men also feel oppressed by the patriarchy as well. Obviously women have been and continue to be oppressed to a far greater and much more literal degree, but so many men feel this immense pressure to "be a man." This frustration at feeling inadequate because of these immense pressures is what makes so many men as dangerous and unpredictable as they are. I really think this is a major part of the issue, we need more men to stand up and realize that they don't have to conform to some shitty societal idea of what masculinity should be, same as how women have been fighting against their own traditional gender roles. Any man who can feel secure in being himself regardless of society's expectations should help the men in his life to understand the same. Maybe then we'd have less insecure, dangerous men running around.
Oh yeah Bloodywood get that. They're an all male band. They also have songs about struggling with suicide and living your own truth
(In Hindi:)
I am not voiceless, I am endurant
I m not a stray rock, I am the founding stone of a mountain
I am not weak, I am forgiving
Within darkness, I am my own light
They are the most positive male role models you can imagine, openly talking about personal struggle and about the things they told themself to overcome those struggles.
And they also think the working class should rise up and redistribute wealth. They've used the proceeds from their tours to help homeless animals and pay for counselling for young people. They say if the conditions faced by the poorest in society don't change, the owning class should expect a riot. "No flag on my bulletproof vest".
it feels like you are being lumped in with the worst of menkind for no good reason.
Before I realized I was trans I also got super upset at being lumped in with bad men (although with an additional different reason that I didn't understand at the time), and that feeling is absolutely terrible, because you're basically getting shit on just for existing.
From my perspective as a woman it seems like there are a lot of shitty dudes out there. After I realizing I'm trans it became a lot easier to notice misogyny since it now affects me. I did notice before, but when something affects you specifically you notice it a lot more. I also didn't fully understand how weak women are compared to men until I started taking estrogen. Just being near a man I don't know well or at all is very scary because of how easily he could overpower me.
If I am getting a random bear vs a random man I would definitely take the bear just because I feel like the risk of getting a bad man is too high. If I could pick a specific man, I definitely would pick my father or a friend because I know they are good men and I feel safe around them.
I think some outrage could have been avoided if the question was worded just a bit better, although I think part of why it got so popular is because of the outrage it caused.
hell yeah dude. it’s an uncomfortable conclusion to draw, but it’s an uncomfortable reality we live in.
Love getting the wakeup call that just because something is part of the fediverse it is not inherently good or perfekt and still needs work (in regards of the humans that join)
Shit misogynists say
The men ain't sending their best, folks.
They’re sending rapists—and some of us, I assume, are good people
I feel like it depends on the instance, .world is mostly male liberals (who will occasionally act sexist) while Blahaj.zone is mostly Transfem :3
(Btw I wouldnt tolerate any of those comments on c/Trans)
i miss [bigotry showcase] it made me feel like i was on the sane part of the internet
!lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world has a big problem with openly misogynistic users making “jokes” in the comments.
Oh shit, I've seen this (yours) post a few hours ago, but just now I noticed that's Lemmy...
I thought that was from Reddit at first.
thats what happens when you build a community with a large percentage of shut-in nerds and software devs (speaking as one of the latter)
Which instance was this on?
!lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world which someone else said has a problem with this sort of thing. wasn’t personally aware it was localized.
.world users suck compared to blahaj.zone. With .ml, you get tankies, but with .world, you get more transphobes and lib normies. I spend all my time here, getting shocked by what's normalized when I visit other instances. The people here can be horny, but are much more likely to respect boundaries if told.
What happens when you group all chronically online nerds in one place (twice not going outside and talking to girls)
tbh put some respect on the name of chronically online nerds- that describes like a ton of my friends who would never say this shit lmao
these guys are like a really sad subsection of that group
Something something bear
Has that picture cropped off the S or a comma?
Is it "Italians do it better" or "Italian, do it better'
it’s the full plural “italians” like in the madonna music video
What the fuck?
Oh hey, I'm in this screenshot making an off-color comment. We can debate misogyny and such, probably won't be very productive.
The thing I find interesting in this: "Italians Do It Better" is an inherently sexual statement. Everyone knows that IT is sex and maybe some other reference with this style of bumper sticker meme. That's what makes it funny. So then, is it wrong to make a sexual joke about someone who is wearing a funny sexual statement? I don't think so.
If she were wearing a plain tee or some other logo, I wouldn't make a sexual joke. This feels like white knight silliness to me.
I love all these comments like this woman is asking, cares, or is even interested. "I totally probably would." Okay, but would she??? Why do they think this woman wants to be someone's last call when she could be someone's first choice? If I looked at a picture of a regular guy and my fat ass was like, "Hmm, I mean, if I was drunk, and I had no options, I guess I'd take him home" I'd be dragged, and rightfully so. 😂
I'm glad that every time I see a "girls are boring/well-adjusted, boys are quirky" meme format someone has already commented on that, but it always comes with multiple "it's just a meme dude, don't overthink it" responses.
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
