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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by chuso@kbin.social to c/lgbtq_plus@beehaw.org

The international chess federation known as FIDE has published new rules that state that a person whose "gender was changed from a male to a female the player has no right to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made".

The new rules introduce the following changes:

  • Trans women cannot participate in the women's category unless they are explicitly allowed in a case-by-case process that can take up to two years.
  • Trans men will be stripped of their titles achieved before their transition while trans women will retain their titles achieved before their transition.
  • In case a trans person is allowed to participate, their trans condition will be added to their files and communicated to events organizers.
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[-] whiskeypickle@lemmy.ml 96 points 1 year ago

as no logical sense can possibly be made of this, the only rational conclusion is:

cruelty is the point.

[-] chuso@kbin.social 63 points 1 year ago

Some people are questioning why there are gender-specific categories in chess.

That's a good question and my understanding is that there is only a female category and then the general one where both men and women can participate. The female one seems to have been created to encourage the participation of women due to the general one being monopolized by men.

You may agree or not with that reasoning and I am not trying to take any stance on it, just trying to answer the questions on why they created a gender-specific category in the first place.

I am not really into chess competitions and my understanding of this point is based on explanations I saw from others elsewhere, so I may be wrong.

[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

Yeah, these categories are not a reflection of physical (or in this case mental abilities) but to give women a chance to shine in a mostly male dominated field. The problem is that when one side has bias in it's favor, or is simply more prevalent in the competition, they get way over-represented and it discourages people from the other side(s) to join in since it seem futile.

I think maybe a good way to get rid of this problem is for competition to feature more categories. In chess, for example, you could have categories and tournaments like youngest, newest to the game, underdogs, etc. which are more likely to feature a variety of players.

[-] quindraco@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

I appreciate you.

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[-] LoreleiSankTheShip@lemmy.ml 58 points 1 year ago

It is obvious that men, with they physically stronger bodies and larger frames, are better than women at chess. It would be unfair to them to compete with eachother, since the male brain is the bigger muscle. /s

In all seriousness, I see absolutely no point in gender divisions in chess of all things.

[-] branchial@feddit.de 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The gender division is because women on average are worse then men at chess and likely to be eliminated in a tournament early on if they manage to qualify at all.

This is because chess is a boys club where men and boys get better training and have an easier time advancing and practicing then women.

The best way to get better at chess however are tournaments, where you can play your equal under a stressful and emotional context. Since women can't advance as well as men because of discrimination, they wouldnt be able to play tournaments making it even more difficult to advance their game.

The women's league are created so that women can play in tournaments, get practice, get better and be able to play in the big boy tournaments as well as a creating an environment where sexual harrasment, which is also a problem at the main tournaments, is mitigated.

[-] emma@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago

So a protected category for women only, because of social factors rather than inherent physical differences.

This makes some sense to me based on my own experiences in other areas like mathematics and science competitions. The boys in my school who knew me were mostly alright but it was still a very strange environment to be a teenage girl in. I was always keenly aware of being an outsider. And it was so much worse in rooms full of strangers at competitions. Intimidating and overwhelming.

For all that I was consistently at or near the top in our school, I always fell at the outside competitions. Felt horrible too, that I was letting everyone down. I was too young to understand the sexism at play so I just beat myself up about it and stopped participating.

In general, I support protected categories for women. We haven't come anywhere near far enough in reducing sexism to make them unnecessary. I don't know if it's a big enough issue with trans women in competitive chess to make this sort of ruling. It might have the balance wrong. But it would be good if there was more understanding of what these kinds of environments can be like for cis girls and women.

[-] branchial@feddit.de 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Right, so the transphobic fear the FIDE has is that men might try to exploit a loophole by "posing" as trans. So they have these severe restrictions on who might be considered transitioned, why they will "alert" tournaments that someone is trans, why they require legal proof of transitioning before giving in and why they're stripping trans men of their titles (so that if a cis man manages circumvent all these protection by successfully posing as a trans woman and having won all these titles transitions back, he no longer has them).

It's the same trans-panic as in so many other sport federations. Severe legislation hurting trans people trying to pre-empt a completely made up cheating scenario.

edit: (hopefully) clarified the wording

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[-] Gormadt@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago

Of course they are, the pieces are super manly in the men's games. Made of concrete for extra ruggedness and painted manly colors, nothing bright or cheerful as far as the eye could see. And the chairs they sit in are also super manly no comfort at all. All played on a manly tactical chessboard. /S

Seriously though this whole decision just screams "cruelty is the point" and no concept of equality.

[-] Pandoras_Can_Opener@mander.xyz 20 points 1 year ago

I'm especially fascinated by the gendered difference in whether you get to keep your titles. So transitioning one way means you keep your chess muscles? But not the other? Transness itself isn't the problem then?? I'd love to hear them attempt to justify that rule.

[-] emma@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They seem to be applying the correct gender retroactively, with a key difference being that there's a women's protected category and an open category. Women, cis or trans, can play in the open category so change in gender status for someone who competed as if they were a man (and thus necessarily in the open category) is irrelevant to the titles.

At present I'm inclined to disagree with this apparent retroactive application so I'm not defending this, just explaining my understanding of their thinking. It's about open and protected categories. If it was men's only and women's only, it would be different.

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[-] liv@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

Me too. I can't figure out the bigoted "logic" here at all.

[-] Pandoras_Can_Opener@mander.xyz 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah. I was reminded of the sports "debate" as well. Chess is one of the sports where you wonder why they have a gender division in the first place. Are they afraid of loosing to trans people or women (cis and trans)?

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

The women's division exists because when the world of chess begrudgingly started to accept women at all, the massive amount of sexism discouraged women from actually playing and competing. So the other division exists to allow them to be acknowledged as players and be able to participate with a (reduced) amount of sexism driving women away.

So same reason there are colleges for women and black folks, they were established because they were either excluded or driven out of existing institutions.

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[-] HiDiddlyDoodlyHo@beehaw.org 37 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ah, yes, because being trans definitely has a bearing on whether or not you're good at chess. These totally aren't just explicitly transphobic policies enacted by bigoted old men. I would also like to point out that the current president of FIDE is the former deputy prime minister of Russia. Not that Russian people are all transphobic, but I wonder if some of Putin's influence isn't in this decision.

[-] YaaAsantewaa 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Take a wild guess at who the President of FIDE is, if you're wondering why and it'll make sense

Just kidding, no need to guess, here you go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkady_Dvorkovich

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[-] LadyAutumn 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Jesus christ do they not edit these things before they press release them? If a trans masc person comes out he'll lose his titles in the women's category, but if he detransitions he'll get them back? Fantastic they came up with rules specifically for the less than 1% of people who detransition. If a detransitioner were to win titles, then transition then detransition. They had to get that out there lest anyone claim they're being unfair 🙄

What is the implication here?? That trans woman are not socially disadvantaged enough by misogyny to qualify as deserving access to the women's category? Trans women. Quite possibly the most vilified people in society. Who suffer from the same systems of misogyny. If a cis woman had grown up in a society that prized female chess players would she also be excluded from the women's category? If we're considering some kind of "how discouraged from playing chess were you" based trans exclusionary rule, why is that same rule not being applied equally to cisgender women?

I am so fucking tired of people acting like trans women have any kind of social advantage in literally any context. We meet hatred and violence at every single level of society. A trans woman playing in the "open" (see men's) category of chess would face that exact same discrimination and hatred the moment she achieved any kind of recognition for herself. Look at any trans athlete. They act like we get deified or something, when the reality is the moment we achieve anything we're essentially forced to retire immediately to stop the endless onslaught of hatred and harassment that is immediately directed at us.

[-] StringTheory@beehaw.org 21 points 1 year ago

The misogyny is so hefty. “Men are inherently better at everything than women, women are inherently worse at everything than men. Trans women are men, therefore inherently better than all other women at everything and must be disqualified…”

I wish I could remember the quote (and who said it) about how all the various forms of sex/gender/orientation hate boil down to misogyny. It was erudite and extremely effective.

[-] RickRussell_CA@beehaw.org 5 points 1 year ago

I need clarification. What does "social advantage" have to do with chess performance, or the restricted competition class of women's chess?

[-] Walk_blesseD 6 points 1 year ago

In the case of professional chess, the social advantage men have is not being relentlessly bullied, harassed, and condescended to for their gender. It should be quite obvious that this is not an advantage that a trans woman would have.

[-] AnarchoYeasty@beehaw.org 27 points 1 year ago

See, I can see the arguments for this for like physical sports. And to be clear I fully support trans people but I can understand how being born male can give you certain advantages in physical sports that make it unfair towards women who were born female. I don't know the right answer for how to handle it, but I can see how the complaints make sense.

But fucking chess? Come on what the hell advantage do people amab have over cis women in chess? This is bigotry pure and simple.

[-] sarsaparilyptus@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago

Their motivation essentially boils down to "We have to separate them to protect women from the terrifying power of the superior male intellect".

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[-] bermuda@beehaw.org 15 points 1 year ago

The idea (and I'm not defending it here necessarily, just stating FIDE's reasoning) is to offer a safe space for women to compete professionally at the game. There's a huge "boy's club" problem in chess and many of some of the best male players in the world are notoriously sexist. Women who have participated in the mainline tournaments in the past have complained of sexism. Garry Kasparov even notoriously claimed one woman was cheating after she bested him.

Chess isn't also gendered both ways. There's women's tournaments and women's titles, but not a men's tournament. Men participate in an "everybody" tournament that women are welcome to join.

Think of it like the women's only carriages in trains in some countries. Only women can go in those carriages, but women can go in the other carriages if they want to.

[-] fuzzywolf23@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago

The reason for gendered distinctions in chess is entirely social, ostensibly because boys are pushed toward chess more than girls. This ruling is entirely bizarre, imo

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[-] PeachyMcPeachface 22 points 1 year ago

It's because only trans people can en passant. Too strong.

No but seriously this is blatant transphobia. There's no reason for this ruling. Stripping titles is just salt in the wound, wtf.

[-] ShaunaTheDead@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

It's almost certainly transphobia, but it can also be considered misogyny because he's implying that AMAB people have an inherent advantage over women.

[-] PeachyMcPeachface 6 points 1 year ago

Yeah, they often go hand in hand. Shits wild.

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[-] ApeNo1@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago

Um … what does gender or gender identity have to do with advantages or disadvantages in chess. Of all competitions where this is absolutely meaningless, surely Chess has to be nearly top of that list.

[-] branchial@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There is a huge gender gap and the men discriminate against women and prefer to play other men. Thus the women get worse/less diverse practice than men which leads to them being worse at chess on average than men.

This leads to them not qualifying for tournaments, which means even less chances to practice because the best way to get better are tournaments. Thus the womens league so they can at least play their equal in a tournament setting. Also having a lower entry barrier for women hopefully motivates more women/girls to play chess.

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[-] favrion@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago

Set FIDE on FIRE.

[-] TQuid@beehaw.org 16 points 1 year ago

FIDE have been little more than mobsters for years. I wish I could say I’m surprised.

[-] Rozauhtuno 13 points 1 year ago

Yeah, because I guess trans people have an unfair advantage in also... checks notes chess!??

Whoever came up with this bs is one step away from admitting they think men are smarter than women, I can feel it. Gender essentialism needs to eat shit and die already. blobcat, middlefinger

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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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