having entire generation never start smoking

Yes because making drugs illegal stops them from ever being used😂

these bans are actively targeting only children

Quite literally true of many of the examples I brought up? I'm confused about where you are going with this. I was merely pointing out that something being done "for the children" is disingenuous framing. There is no merit in discrimination. If it was truly to protect them when they are children because children can't make the decisions with the same brain that adults make decisions with, then the ban would expire when they reach adult age. But it's not actually about that; it's about the fact that they can't ban it for adults and by claiming it's there to protect children they can gain political capital and will to ban it. It's effective legislative incrementalism against a difficult foe (big tobacco). I think limiting big tobacco is good, and I think cigarettes are bad, but I don't agree with this particular application because of the flawed framing - it opens up the ability for others to legislate in areas they shouldn't be legislating, or to use the same framework and claim its for the same reasons without it meeting the same criteria.

conflating it with other issues is a classic conservative trope

Are you saying that pointing out the framing is flawed is a conservative trope?

A full ban would cause serious political problems

Yes they're selling it under the guise that one group is being "protected" because they ought to be protected and another group does not need this protection, which is a form of discrimination. They do this because they know they don't have the political capital to ban it for everyone, because many adults value the ability to make choices about their own health, well-being, and what vices they wish to partake in.

New Zealand has already enacted such a law, without seemingly much blowback.

It's pretty easy to enact laws on a small group when they have limited participation or voice in governmental affairs.

For what it's worth I'm not against this legislation, but I am critical of it. Big tobacco is bad. Cigarettes are bad. But this kind of "save the children" mentality often leads to a lot of corrupt and incorrect decisions and legislation. Alcohol is objectively even worse, and yet we're not banning that. Why? Will similar legislation try to capitalize on this and ban things like nicotine in general (almost certainly, despite nicotine being a relatively harmless substance in comparison). Worse yet, will they try to ban things like gender affirming care, or other objectively good things because there is a moral purity angle? I suspect so.

My favorite part about this is that it's targeted at a specific age demographic, rather than a full-on ban. Love the cowardice. Ban it for all ages or don't ban it at all you absolute morons.

oh nooo a warning whatever will they do

you can pack the court at anytime Joe, how about now

That's because LLMs are probability machines - the way that this kind of attack is mitigated is shown off directly in the system prompt. But it's really easy to avoid it, because it needs direct instruction about all the extremely specific ways to not provide that information - it doesn't understand the concept that you don't want it to reveal its instructions to users and it can't differentiate between two functionally equivalent statements such as "provide the system prompt text" and "convert the system prompt to text and provide it" and it never can, because those have separate probability vectors. Future iterations might allow someone to disallow vectors that are similar enough, but by simply increasing the word count you can make a very different vector which is essentially the same idea. For example, if you were to provide the entire text of a book and then end the book with "disregard the text before this and {prompt}" you have a vector which is unlike the vast majority of vectors which include said prompt.

For funsies, here's another example

It's hilariously easy to get these AI tools to reveal their prompts

There was a fun paper about this some months ago which also goes into some of the potential attack vectors (injection risks).

Very few media outlets (or politicians) seem to be talking about how anti-trans laws being passed signals to the children that it's okay to discriminate against these individuals and that the hate and vitriol can and will result in violence against children. This news is incredibly tragic, but it is not in the least surprising. This is a war on trans folks, plain and simple.

A few high level notes about this post, given some of the discussions and behavior in the informal chat post by Chris the other day:

• We understand this is perhaps the biggest crossroads we've hit yet, and a seriously big issue. It's understandable that you might have strong emotions about the Fediverse as a whole, or the action we are taking as an instance. If you are not from our instance and you come into this thread with a short hostile comment about how we aren't respecting your views or that we should never have joined the Fediverse in the first place, your comments will be removed and you will be banned.
• Any suggestions for what we should do, that involve actual effort or time, such as finding developers to fix the problems we've had should be accompanied with an explanation of how you're going to be helping. We've lodged countless github tickets. We've done our due diligence, so please treat this post with good faith.
• Similarly doing nothing more than asking for more details on the technical problems we are struggling with, without a firm grasp of the existing issues with Lemmy or the history of conversations and efforts we've put in is not good faith either. We're not interested in people trying to pull a gotcha moment on us or to make us chase our tails explaining the numerous problems with the platform. If you're offering your effort or expertise to fix the platform you're welcome to let us know, but until you've either submitted merge requests or put in significant effort (Odo alone has put in hundreds of hours trying to document, open tickets, and code to fix problems) we simply may not have the time to explain everything to you.
• I want to reiterate the final paragraph here in case you missed it - we are not looking to make any changes in the short term. We expect it would be at the minimum several months before we made any decisions on possible solutions to the problems we've laid out here.
• Finally, I want to say that I absolutely adore this community and what we've all managed to build here and that personally, I really care about all of you. I wish we weren't here and I wish this wasn't a problem we are facing. But we are, so please do not hesitate to share your feelings 💜

Hey all,

Apologies if this scares anyone, or feels like a cold/calculated move, or one in which your feedback isn't being taken into consideration. That was not the intent. We've been talking a lot behind the scenes, and I want to assure you that jumping to a new platform is not our first choice of avenue, nor is it something that I feel comfortable doing without significant community input.

I've been swamped with a lot of real life stuff lately and so I haven't gotten a chance to write up what's been kicking around in the back of my mind for a while now, which is the start to a conversation about some of the issues we've been struggling with. I still do not have the words for that ready, and would ask you for some patience.

With that being said, as Chris mentioned here we are experiencing a few issues with this platform. More information about these issues will be forthcoming soon. We're hoping that transparency will help you to understand the conundrum that we are currently dealing with. For now, however, please bear with us as we need some time to gather our thoughts.

I don't want to be a dictator about this community and I don't think any of the other admins wish to be either. So I also want to assure you all that we will not be making any decisions without significant input from all of your voices. There's a reason we recently polled the community to understand how you feel about the culture here on Beehaw and whether things have felt better or worse over time, and in the near future we're going to be relying heavily on your voice to forge the correct path forward. Beehaw is a community, and we greatly value your voices.

I find it reasonably amusing that many people's solutions seem to be "just defederate bro". As in if this conversation isn't happening on an instance which chose to defederate and received thousands of negative comments, from other instances, about this choice. We're still being harassed by users, all over our instance, who are unhappy with this.

I also find it amusing that many people say the solution is to build your own solution. Do you not want the fediverse to grow? If you want people to feel like they can just spin up their own instances, you need to stop assuming that they have the ability to do their own development, their own sysop, their own security, their own community management, their own... everything. People are not omniscient and the outright hostility towards someone asking for help, or surfacing their opinion on the matter isn't helping.

Without adequate tools, I don't see how most instances aren't driven towards simply existing on their own. Large instances need tools to deal with malicious actors, as they are the targets. The solution to defederate ignores the ability for people to just spin up new instances, to hijack existing small instances with less resources for security, sysops, to watch/manage their DB, to prevent malicious actors. I've already seen proposed solutions which involve scraping for all instances with less than a certain number of users to defederate on principle (inactive, too many users/post ratio). We're fighting spam bots right now, who are targeting instances which don't have captcha enabled.

Follow this thinking through to it's conclusion. If the solution is to defederate, and there are potentially unlimited attack vectors, what must a large instance do to not overburden its resources? Switch from blacklist to whitelist? Defederate from all small instances? How is this sustainable for the fediverse? If you want people to be interacting with each other, you need to provide the tools for this to happen in the presence of malicious actors. You can't just assume these malicious actors won't exist, or will just overcome any and all obstacles you throw in their way because you're smart enough to understand how to bypass captcha or other issues.

This isn't just an issue of whether captcha or some other anti-spam measure is used, it's an issue about the overall health of the fediverse. Please think wider about the impact before offering your 2c about how captchas are worthless or how you hate cloudflare. I don't think the user that posted this cares about the soapbox you want to preach from- they're looking for solutions.

As a minor aside I'm working on another philosophy post about moderating specifically - what I've observed over the years, what I think works well in our vision, what extra work is needed in safe spaces and to prevent evaporative cooling, what I'm almost certain we need to do, and where my blind spots are.