The gangs are backed by Israel according to an UN memo obtained by the Washington Post https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/11/18/gaza-looting-aid-convoys-israel-famine/
Accuse Hamas of being Isis (after supporting them financially for decades), then turn around and support actual ISIS to aid in their genocide. Warms my heart to see the most moral army in action.
Israeli soldiers have also set a school on fire right after it got aid to prevent the starving population from getting any aid
This latest aid convoy was also forced to abandon their planned departure time and route by the Israeli military and told to go early and on an unfamiliar route where they wound up getting attacked and hijacked. This was so obviously planned out by Israel.
Is there evidence that the Israeli soldiers did it?
From the Haaretz article:
A school in northern Gaza burned down on Monday, hours after humanitarian aid trucks had arrived to it, according to photos and accounts by locals. Residents of the area said Israeli soldiers had set the fire that consumed the school.
A video seen on social media on Sunday, taken by an IDF soldier, showed two Israeli armored vehicles leaving the school surroundings as it was engulfed in flames
Staff from the UN World Food Program, which sent the aid, as well as other international sources, said Gazans did not even have time to collect the aid. They said the military launched an attack in the area and soldiers had surrounded the building before the food was distributed.
The convoy, consisting of two trucks and a water tanker, was the first to be approved by the military to enter northern Gaza after a month and a half of siege. The decision followed international pressure over the failure to deliver aid to Gazans.
Witnesses said soldiers forced civilians away from the area, preventing them from collecting the aid, which was later destroyed by the fire. Reports also said civilians had been killed at the site. The soldiers involved belonged to the Rotem Battalion in the Givati Brigade, the reports said.
Other footage was posted on Thursday showing fires at schools in northern Gaza. A video from the Jabalya refugee camp showed a soldier standing in the yard of a burning school. Another video showed a large blaze in the Salah al-Din School in Gaza City, which had been serving as a shelter for refugees.
Residents of the area said
Hearsay is not evidence.
leaving the school surroundings
Being near something is not evidence of having done it.
approved by the military to enter northern Gaza
Why would the IDF attack a convoy they they themselves approved?
Witnesses said
Hearsay is not evidence.
Reports also said
Reports by who? With what evidence?
Clearly objectivity and media literacy are at an all time low. What a shame.
This is not a court proceeding, so saying "hearsay is not evidence" is pointless. Witness testimony before a court would be evidence. And all we know as of now points towards Israel doing it. The details will have to be proven in court, when they eventually get their Nuremberg.
This is not a court proceeding, so saying “hearsay is not evidence” is pointless.
You're right. In fact the stakes are much higher than a court proceeding, as is the need to be accurate and certain about allegations.
Witness testimony before a court would be evidence.
It would be, if the witness was someone deemed to be credible and if what they saw was consistent with other confirmed facts.
You should be glad that we happen to live in a world where "I saw them do it!" alone isn't enough to convict someone of a serious crime.
The details will have to be proven in court, when they eventually get their Nuremberg.
Good! And if/when that time comes, and the details are proven beyond a reasonable doubt with hard evidence, then it can be said to be a fact. What a concept, eh?
As of now, what you are describing is little more than a conspiracy theory akin to "stop the steal", flat earth, birtherism, and so on. All this conversation has shown is that the Lemmy groupthink is just as prone to believing conspiracy theories and propaganda that conforms to their biases as some of the wack-jobs on the far right.
If the story was flipped and we were accusing Palestinians of burning down an Israeli school I'd be making all the same points. You know why? Because If your standards for truth and objectivity morph and change depending on which side of the holy war you're talking about, then you don't really give a damn about the truth at all, do you?
Wow, you're quite divorced from reality. What is a credible witness to you then? Something like this perchance?
If the story was flipped and we were accusing Palestinians of burning down an Israeli school I'd be making all the same points. You know why? Because If your standards for truth and objectivity morph and change depending on which side of the holy war you're talking about, then you
Nice story bro. As far as I know, no one has been convicted before a court for the October 7th attacks. We shouldn't talk about the massacres then, right? 🤡
Ooh, the ad homenim into family guy meme baseless "you're racist" strawman argument.
Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel of stupid shit to say, aren't you?
You're the one bringing race into this and I can only hazard a guess why....
As far as I know, no one has been convicted before a court for the October 7th attacks. We shouldn’t talk about the massacres then, right?
Nice one "bro", but there are hundreds of hours of high-resolution video footage of October 7th, much of which was recorded and published by Hamas militants themselves. Innocent people being fucking shot and killed, their homes and communes ransacked, men, women and children taken captive (about 100 of which are still unaccounted for today).
Is this your idea of good argument? Denial of a objectively horrible and well-documented massacre of people in broad daylight?
If so, that pretty disgusting. You dropped this 🤡
IF the evidence behind October 7th was "I dunno maybe it happened because someone says that they saw someone who looked like Hamas do something near something else but maybe not", then I would also have a very difficult time accepting that as fact. I would want to some actual evidence of that, wouldn't you?
Someone like you, who is more biased and hateful, would gladly accept something so inconclusive as a fact to justify their feelings of blind anger and tribal vengeance.
This holy war will go on for another 80 years because of people like you who are willing to believe anything that makes them feel better about whichever side of this pointless bullshit that they happen to subscribe to.
this holy war will not go on for another 80 years. because at the current rate, every Palestinian left in Gaza will be dead in a year. and you seem to be fine with Israel withholding aid and now, according to current evidence (but not yet proven in an international court) destroying or helping destroy what little aid does get in.
I'm done with this, I'm blocking you now. I'm sick of having to argue that genocide is wrong.
And the other possibility is that Hamas set their own school on fire because....?
I love that you will attempt to break that argument down, yet just ignore the complete idiocy of the only real alternative.
Nothing can ever happen unless maplebar witnesses it personally
Why would the IDF attack a convoy they they themselves approved?
Wouldn't be the first time...
Or the 2nd... or the 3rd...
If you're not even going to believe Israeli media...
Idiots believe "media", intelligent people believe concrete evidence, of which there is none to back up the original claim.
Source on ISIS being behind the looting?
Every source I've seen suggests it's home grown Palestinian gangsters lead by Abu Shabab.
Defense officials confirmed that the IDF is aware of the problem. They said that at one point, the government had even considered making the clans to which the armed men belong responsible for distributing aid to Gaza's residents, even though some of the clans' members are involved in terrorism, and some are even affiliated with extremist organizations like the Islamic State.
So source: the IDF
"The UN says it's the Jews fault that Palestinians are stealing from Palestinians!"
Funny how Palestinians can apparently do no wrong. 🤣
What began in the spring as a largely random phenomenon of desperate civilians stealing from trucks has now morphed into an organized criminal enterprise, aid groups say, and the gangs responsible have become increasingly violent and powerful — compounding the struggle to deliver food, hygiene items and cold-weather supplies to 2 million displaced and hungry people as winter approaches.
Palestinians can do no wrong at this point. This is like judging the Jews, queers, and other minorities in Auschwitz for their methods of fighting back. They’re a people fighting for their very existence from the most brutal fascist regime most of us have ever had the horror of witnessing.
Palestinians can do no wrong at this point.
You may want to read up some about how LGBTQ people are treated in Gaza before you come out with gems like that, amigo...
Don't choose to be brainwashed. Both Israel and Palestine have done horrible and atrocious shit throughout this >80 year conflict. There is zero excuse for the blatant disregard of innocent civilian lives that we have seen on both side over the last 14 months alone. This is not a blank-and-white, good-vs-bad, situation.
How do you read that 2 million people are being deliberately forcibly displayed, starved, and targeted; and respond with a laughing emoji. It's not surprising that everybody in Gaza is desperate for food and aid when they've been starved and bombed nonstop for an entire year. How do you read that and laugh?
I'm laughing at the patently absurd and ridiculous conspiracy theory that the local Palestinian gangs lead by the Palestinian Abu Shabab are "backed by Israel". A claim that has literally zero evidence or basis in fact behind it.
This isn't about me, other than the fact that this is about Palestinian thugs stealing the humanitarian aid that my taxes have helped pay for from other Palestinians.
You might as well tell me that the Earth is flat and the aid trucks fell of the edge. It's ridiculous coping bullshit that one can only assume was made up to try to remove all nuance from the discussion by blaming it on the Israelis.
Yeah so ridiculous. It's not like Netanyahu's government has directly given Hamas aid in the form of literal cash.... Wait
I'm laughing at the patently absurd and ridiculous conspiracy theory that the local Palestinian gangs lead by the Palestinian Abu Shabab are "backed by Israel". A claim that has literally zero evidence or basis in fact behind it.
There is evidence
An internal UN memo obtained by the Washington Post concluded in October that the gangs “may be benefiting from a passive if not active benevolence” or “protection” from the Israeli army.
The memo said that one gang leader established a “military like compound” in an area “restricted, controlled and patrolled" by the Israeli army.
With the collapse of civil order due to Israel’s targeting and killing of members of Gaza’s police force, few people are left to guard humanitarian aid convoys.
Aid organisations say Israel has denied most of their requests for better measures to ensure the safety of convoys. As the occupying force, Israel is legally responsible for ensuring aid supplies to civilian populations
Only 57 trucks a day were allowed to cross into Gaza in October, far lower than the 350 the US had requested, and the 600 a day aid agencies say are required to meet basic needs. Meanwhile, food prices have skyrocketed.
Gaza police battle gang members accused of stealing humanitarian aid
This isn't about me, other than the fact that this is about Palestinian thugs stealing the humanitarian aid that my taxes have helped pay for from other Palestinians
This entire famine created by Israel is deliberate and intentional. If you're worried taxes, you should be focused on the magnitudes more, over 17 billion, going to the weapons being used to facilitate this genocide. All this chaos only goes to show how woefully inadequate the humanitarian aid has been and how much more is needed.
The memo said that one gang leader established a “military like compound” in an area “restricted, controlled and patrolled" by the Israeli army.
A "UN memo" saying that the gangs "may be benefiting" from the Israeli army isn't exactly conclusive evidence now is it?
Gaza’s police force
A.K.A. Hamas
Meanwhile, food prices have skyrocketed.
Because Palestinian gangsters have stolen all of the aid that Western countries have donated to them, while Hamas' allies in Iran and Russia laugh their fucking asses off at us.
This entire famine created by Israel is deliberate and intentional.
Gaza is right on the Mediterranean Sea, where people have been thriving off fish and produce since prehistory. At some point you're going to have to stop blaming Israel for all of Palestine's problems and failings, especially since (as you rightfully pointed out) it is Palestinian gangsters who are stealing the aide, not Israelis.
I like how quick you are to shift the goalposts from "there's no evidence. None at all" to "oh that evidence you provided? It isn't conclusive evidence". Keep cheering for genocide if that's what you want to do, there's no need to pretend this is about anything else.
I like how quick you are to shift the goalposts from “there’s no evidence. None at all” to “oh that evidence you provided?
Go ahead and explain to me about how a UN memo saying that something "may be" happening is "evidence" of anything?
Is it happening or is it not happening? If this was something that there was undeniable evidence of, do you think the report would say that it "may be" happening or that it "is" happening?
That's not moving the goalposts, that's just basic reading comprehension--something you clearly lack.
Keep cheering for genocide if that’s what you want to do, there’s no need to pretend this is about anything else.
Ah, here it is, the strawman we've all been waiting for!
I'm against any Israeli desire for genocide against the Palestinian people, just like I am against any Palestinian desire to genocide the Israeli people. I have always and will always believe in a peaceful two-state solution in which Israel and Palestine learn to cooperate, respect defined boundaries, enshrine equal rights for minorities, and run their nations in a democratic and secular fashion instead of a theocratic authoritarian one.
I mean... I get it, dude. It's cool.
I don't have a side in this holy war that has been going on since long before I was born. In fact, both the Israelis and the Palestinians have proven themselves to be barbaric shitheads who are more than happy to violate the norms of war and target innocent civilians in the name of their personal brand of violent genocide.
Like many other people on this website, you simply don't like it when people challenge your oh-so-nuanced "Israeli Jew bad, Palestinian Muslim good" viewpoint by asking for even the most basic thread of evidence to back up your provocative story, and so you get frustrated when the best evidence that you have is that some Palestinian witness claims to have seen an IDF soldier in the general vicinity of the thing happening.
That's fine, I guess. I'm still going to ask to see the receipts when people make outlandish claims.
Israel's occupation and Blockade has been throttling the food available to Palestinians in Gaza to below what's needed for decades. The full blockade and famine is simply an extension of a longstanding practice.
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly"
One of the over 500 instances of Israeli incitement of genocide
Israel also arbitrarily limits how far Palestinians can fish in the sea and shoot them on sight. Gaza fisherfolk can only ‘dream of fishing freely’ under Israel’s blockade
De-development via the Gaza Occupation
Between July 1971 and February 1972, Sharon enjoyed considerable success. During this time, the entire Strip (apart from the Rafah area) was sealed off by a ring of security fences 53 miles in length, with few entrypoints. Today, their effects live on: there are only three points of entry to Gaza—Erez, Nahal Oz, and Rafah.
Perhaps the most dramatic and painful aspect of Sharon’s campaign was the widening of roads in the refugee camps to facilitate military access. Israel built nearly 200 miles of security roads and destroyed thousands of refugee dwellings as part of the widening process.' In August 1971, for example, the Israeli army destroyed 7,729 rooms (approximately 2,000 houses) in three vola- tile camps, displacing 15,855 refugees: 7,217 from Jabalya, 4,836 from Shati, and 3,802 from Rafah.
Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986.
In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60% over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50% decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (combined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.
Page 402
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
Blockade, including Aid
Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.
After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted.
The blockade and Israel’s repeated military offensives have had a heavy toll on Gaza’s essential infrastructure and further debilitated its health system and economy, leaving the area in a state of perpetual humanitarian crisis. Indeed, Israel’s collective punishment of Gaza’s civilian population, the majority of whom are children, has created conditions inimical to human life due to shortages of housing, potable water and electricity, and lack of access to essential medicines and medical care, food, educational equipment and building materials.
Thank you for posting these, can't say I'm surprised to see Zionist libs peddling propaganda on Lemmy
What makes that person a "lib"? Seems like you just want to associate a group of people you don't like with Zionism.
Don't do that.
I'm a secular atheist democratic libertarian socialist. Very little of that factors into my view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Face it. You guys are just being pissy because I asked for the receipts, and it turns out you don't have them.
Frankly, at this point I'm starting to think that many of you guys don't even know what a fucking "zionist" is. It's just become a mantra and a meme to some of you guys.
Imagine being this fragile and butthurt when someone asks if there is evidence behind a claim...
Believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to join the holy war and believe in the Torah or the prophet Muhammad then that's your own [bad] choice. As for me, I'm still going to choose to believe in objective facts.
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