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Cooked (lemmy.world)
submitted 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) by Linkerbaan@lemmy.world to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[-] Mr_Fish@lemmy.world 98 points 11 months ago

There are four options for American voters: vote red, vote blue, vote third party, or don't vote at all.

Voting red is just bad. I highly doubt that the Gaza situation would get any better if Trump gets in, but I know for a fact that a lot of things will get much worse.

Voting third party is a wasted effort. Sure, every sane person would prefer different people to run America, but the the shit fptp system means they'll never get any traction. In another election voting third party could be worth it, since a third party might slowly get more support, but not this one.

Not voting is just pointless. That's just choosing to not impact anything.

That only leaves voting blue. It's not great, but it's the only option left.

[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 56 points 11 months ago

It’s weird how we can try to explain this to people for months straight and they’re still posting stupid memes about it.

[-] Tar_alcaran@sh.itjust.works 25 points 11 months ago

Because they have a LOT of money riding on convincing people not to vote blue. Gee, I wonder who benefits from that most.

[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

wow! who could it be??

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[-] riodoro1@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

It’s weird how you call your country a democracy but are forced to make choices you’re not at all comfortable with.

[-] greedytacothief@lemmy.world 15 points 11 months ago

Umm, I don't. We're a Republic, always have been.

[-] SqueakyBeaver 10 points 11 months ago

I call my country a flaming pile of shit sometimes, for what it's worth

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[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago

This all hangs on the false assumption in the third statement.

[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

Soll explain to us how voting for any third party would change anything for the better.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

They don't support Genocide.

Explain how voting for Democrat would change anything for the better instead.

[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 32 points 11 months ago

So preserving your imaginary moral superiority is your only goal. Right. Gotcha.

[-] bamboo 16 points 11 months ago

Say you don't know how the US electoral college works without saying you don't know how the US electoral college works.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 11 months ago

I highly doubt that the Gaza situation would get any better if Trump gets in, but I know for a fact that a lot of things will get much worse.

What would Trump do that the Dems are not already doing? Trump would be a genocidal monster, yes, but we have DNC goers literally mocking Pro-Palestinian protestors and covering their ears:

There are four options for American voters: vote red, vote blue, vote third party, or don't vote at all.

Nope, there are an infinite number of options. If a math question is "what number is greater than 10?" And the Dems said 4 and the Reps said 2, that doesn't mean the Dems are correct. Voting will not save us, so we must move outside the realm of electoralism. Join an org, build up dual power, replace the DNC and GOP by force.

[-] greyfox@lemmy.world 6 points 11 months ago

But those aren't mutually exclusive things. Voting for the Dems doesn't prevent you from doing those other things in the meantime.

If you only have two real choices that will affect the outcome and one of them is better than the other, voting for neither of them just makes things harder for those that would have made it slightly better. More compromises have to be made and that means the situation can't improve.

I see constant posts about how Trump splitting their base is going to mean the end of the Republican party but that seems very short sighted. It is a simple matter of natural selection, and in a two party system only two parties will ever exist. It also inherently gravitates to very close races between those parties. Any split of the Republican party might cause a term or two of chaos, but it is just a matter of time before something fills the vacuum and balance is restored.

Each party would prefer to move further towards their end of the spectrum, but they are forced to move their values (or choose more centrist candidates) until they have enough of a majority to win.

Gerrymandering, the electoral college, what's left of the judicial branch, apathetic voters, parasitic third parties, and wedge issues have allowed the Republicans to shift further right while maintaining their power. The only possible response to that from the Dems is to also shift right as well. If they didn't the Republicans would just end up with trifectas or super majorities.

Trump was also able to shift racist/authoritarian/nationalist policies much further right by shifting his fiscal policies further left than what Republicans normally would do. His whole campaign was based on deficit spending (tax cuts without any real cost cutting, stimulus COVID spending, etc), public works (multi billion dollar worthless walls), and his focus on blue collar workers (not directly supporting unions but he pushed anti China + US manufacturing boosts).

Every vote for a third party is one less vote that the Republicans need to gain, which is a little more right that they can slide and maintain power, and since natural selection links the two parties it is also a little further right that the Democrats have to slide to maintain their power as well.

If you want to shift things left voting third-party won't do it. Third parties have no power to make changes and never will in our current system.

Voting for the only party that has a chance of winning and is willing to make voting reforms to improve that system is the only hope of shifting the parties to the left where the actual political center of the country lies.

Voting for anyone else is illogical and won't prevent this genocide. Protests, and organizations can maybe help in the short term to push the Democrats to change course but it also disenfranchises more voters to not show up, and pushes more to vote for third parties... And so the snowball tumbles down the hill to the right gaining momentum leaving us with frankly no good choice.

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[-] danciestlobster@lemm.ee 5 points 11 months ago

Maybe this is overly wishful thinking, but I do think there is enough data analysis on how people vote that it could be real: if a large body of people with a history of voting blue vote in this election and vote blue down the ballot but omit the president, or have a third party for the president instead, then that might actually send a message to the Democrats that they are fucking up their candidate selection badly, and make them at least marginally more likely to cater to the left when choosing candidates in the future.

That said I am not sure I can condone this tactic in good faith in this particular election given the alternative, but part of me feels like the right will perpetually have more and more abhorrent alternatives and there needs to be a line somewhere, and if it's not at genocide then I honestly don't know where it is.

No matter how you look at it all the options are bad. At least Tim being slightly left of Kamala shows Democrats slightly more willing to negotiate with disenfranchised left voters than chasing nebulous farther right independents. Not left enough to condemn genocide though so a very minor distinction

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[-] BluJay320 38 points 11 months ago

Wanting people to not vote for the only option that can beat Trump?

Wonder who that benefits… 🤔🤔🤔

[-] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago

Why is the democratic party the only option?

[-] TargaryenTKE@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago

It's the only realistic option at this point. You can still protest the genocide in Gaza AFTER the election (and I fully support you doing so, Hell I might even meet you at one), but look at it this way: if Kamala wins, you have a chance to make a change over there, but if Trump wins again, every Palestinian is as good as dead. Do I like either option? No! Do I think our elections are a good system? No! Am I going to vote for Kamala anyway? Yes! Because at this point, the choice is between shooting ourselves in the foot or in the temple

[-] Deestan@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago

That is a valid question in isolation, but bringing it up in discussions on where to vote is not leading to discussions or actionable improvements. It only functions to push voter disenfrachisement.

Not saying it's your intention, but it is your effect.

Voting least bad is important. Don't discourage it.

Working for better voting options is also important. Do push for that too, but find a constructive setting for it.

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[-] OhStopYellingAtMe@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

Because it is.

[-] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 38 points 11 months ago

So, what course of action are you proposing? Vote Trump? Vote 3rd party? Don't vote?

What's your intended / expected outcome?

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 13 points 11 months ago

Voting 3rd party is a great idea. One that doesn't support Genocide that is.

[-] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 43 points 11 months ago

A normally blue voter voting 3rd party is indirectly helping Trump win the election. Do you think Trump's Israel policy is going to be better than Harris's?

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Trump will be the same on israel. Are you going to reward the Democrats for 10 months of Genocide?

[-] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 38 points 11 months ago

Well, I'm not a single-issue voter.

I'm not rewarding them for anything, but I accept that it's possible to oppose one policy a politician has, even a very important one, and at the same time support a lot of other policies they have, while also vehemently opposing almost all policies that their opponent supports, and make my choice based on that information.

Based on this post, you seem to be a single-issue voter, though, so I'm trying to understand what you're hoping the outcome is. You acknowledge that a vote that supports Trump, even indirectly, is not helping the people of Gaza, so why would you vote against your own self-interests? What's your goal?

If your goal is to show opposition to what's happening in Gaza, there's much more effective ways to do that. Get out there and protest - the protests at the DNC are getting a lot of news coverage, that's where your activism could actually make a difference. Not here.

[-] Linkerbaan@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

Would you be a single-issue voter if you were the victim of Genocide?

The outcome is the Democrats stop committing Genocide or they don't get votes. "But Trump" isn't even an argument.

[-] KoboldCoterie@pawb.social 22 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

If I were the victim of genocide, I wouldn't be a voter at all, because I'd be dead. However, that's kind of irrelevant - are you the victim of genocide? I'm assuming not, if you're voting in the US election. Even if you're Palestinian, your people are the victim of genocide, but unless you're in Palestine, you aren't.

That said, if you are Palestinian, I feel for you, I honestly do, and it would explain your view somewhat.

I think we can both agree that there's only two outcomes that're possible in this election: Trump wins, or Harris wins. (If you don't agree, I'd be happy to hear your third outcome.) If you truly believe there's no difference between the two of them, you need to do some research on the topic, because there are a lot of differences, even if they don't pertain to this issue specifically.

If, between the two of them, you hope Harris wins, a 3rd party vote is voting against your interests. If you hope Trump wins between the two of them, a 3rd party vote is still voting against your interests, because you're effectively taking a vote away from your preferred candidate among the two who could possibly win.

Edit to respond to your edit:

The outcome is the Democrats stop committing Genocide or they don’t get votes. “But Trump” isn’t even an argument.

Unless you're out there protesting, or writing letters, or making phone calls, or in some way letting them know that their policy is costing them your vote, it's a useless gesture. Posting on Lemmy isn't going to change any politician's minds. It's not even going to change anyone's mind here, in all likelihood. If you actually want to make a difference, you need to make your voice heard by the people whose minds you're actually trying to change.

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[-] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 16 points 11 months ago

That's complete nonsense. Trump is going to support Netanjahu going full fascist. The Democrats are going to offer at least some resistance. Not nearly enough obviously, but there is a clear difference nonetheless. A second Trump administration would be extremely damaging not just to the US but to the entire world. But that's fine by you, isn't it? People like you just want to see the world burn and all your ideas of how something better is somehow going to rise from the ashes are just bullshit.

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[-] zeppo@lemmy.world 12 points 11 months ago

Are you going to reward Trump for his decade of insane douchebaggery and criminal behavior? Why would we do that?

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[-] BluJay320 16 points 11 months ago

Just say you want Trump to win, we can all tell.

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[-] f4f4f4f4f4f4f4f4@sopuli.xyz 17 points 11 months ago

This trope is false; frogs will attempt to escape when the water gets unpleasantly hot. They don't allow themselves to be boiled.

Just saying.

[-] Fleur__@lemmy.world 7 points 11 months ago

Ahh 0 up votes, 100 comments, my beloved

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this post was submitted on 23 Aug 2024
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