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Both sides! (lemmy.world)
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[-] Commiunism@lemmy.wtf 114 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Far-left definitely isn't that - "we're gonna make sure everyone's needs are met" is literally a general leftist thing. Assuming you're trying to portray tankies and fascists, a more accurate depiction would be "we're gonna make sure working class needs are met with an iron fist and extermination of anyone potentially rebellious".

That being said, holy shit there are so many bad takes in this thread

[-] dodgy_bagel 38 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Respectfully, I don't think tankies are the farthest left, or even left at all. They seem far too concerned with statism and too unconcerned with uplifting the worker.

I also think that there is space for more than one type of far left.

EDIT: Witness below: a lengthy conversation about states, colonialism, whose team is worse, and other masturbatory topics. What average worker is going to engage with this ideology? Dorks.

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[-] orcrist@lemm.ee 12 points 3 months ago

I understand your definitions, but I I think many Americans don't use the same definitions. OP is pointing this out.

If we look at specific issues it's easy to see. If I say that we should have universal health care, or UBI, many people would say that I'm way far out on the left. What if I said that we shouldn't allow people to be multimillionaires? Would that make me way far out on the left? Again, to a lot of people yes.

So your definitions might be reasonable, but they aren't universal, and I think if you keep that in mind you can appreciate OP more.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

I think the issue is not so much definitions, but who actually has a voice. Currently in US politics the far left does not wield any influence, but the far right does hold some sway over the Republican party.

I suppose some on the right toss out accusations of being far left, but that's just empty rhetoric.

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[-] lennybird@lemmy.world 52 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Right-wing in-group: "So long as you be just like us in every way and fall in line, you will be accepted. Sort of."

Left-wing in-group: "So long as you're not an asshole, we don't care what you believe or do."

Right-wing out-group: Anyone not like them.

Left-wing out-group: Anyone who is an asshole.

[-] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago

The key being what constitutes being an asshole, and what you allow yourself to do to someone once the label can be pasted onto someone. It's really the same thing seen through different gross stereotypes - they could literally say the same thing.

That's not to say there aren't very real differences between parties, but they aren't extreme sides of a one dimensional line (or vague notions in a two dimensional mapping) which is basically a propaganda tool for the ego.

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[-] CyberMonkey404@lemmy.ml 46 points 3 months ago

Good message overall, but man what a terrible choice to depict the left

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[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 41 points 3 months ago

Bolsheviks literally exterminated entire social groups because they believed they were impure. Calling people "kulaks" and such.

They also deported (as in half dying in the way) to Siberia whole peoples, like Chechens and Ingushs.

Also some peoples by ethnicity alone were deemed suspicious in certain parts of USSR and forcefully moved from there. That's how there are very few Greeks in Crimea.

And you have those hammer and sickle on the "far left" pic.

[-] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 26 points 3 months ago

Its almost as if the USSR was just fascism with red trim.

[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago

I agree, but the author used hammer&sickle as the illustration of "far left".

[-] undergroundoverground@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

Its the symbol of communism, as opposed to the USSR alone.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 12 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It originated in the Soviet Union, it's associated with Communism because of the Soviet Union. It's only a symbol of Communism within the context of the USSR, if you believe the model of the USSR to be fascist then you believe the Hammer and Sickle to be symbolic of fascism.

Alternatively, you can dissapprove of the model of the USSR while recognizing it as Socialist and not fascist.

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[-] kameecoding@lemmy.world 17 points 3 months ago

because ironically the author of the meme made the best of fucks up made an unironic meme, Tankies are just Nazis wearing red.

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[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 36 points 3 months ago

Yes, they certainly made sure everybody's needs were met during the Holodomor.

[-] Successful_Try543@feddit.org 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

That was under Stalin's rule which was a fascist regime like any other 'communist' regime that gained power in the last century.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago

Yes, but far left can go that far. Note there are no far left politicians in serious play in American politics. Radical far left means you are ready to go all in on on bad stuff because you think it's the only means to the correct end.

The far right is currently more dangerous in American politics because they are actually in serious play, but let's not assume tossing in some far left would make things better.

[-] fernlike3923@sh.itjust.works 14 points 3 months ago

Far-left would be something like anarcho-communism. Fascism is, in fact, far-right.

[-] jj4211@lemmy.world 10 points 3 months ago

I suppose this is a way the 'left<->right' spectrum to align everything breaks down.

Some would graph 'authoritarianism' on the right and more liberty on the 'left'.

Except some 'leftists' would love to use authoritarian strategies against malicious capitalism and people responsible for environmental misbehavior, which are also seen as "leftist" ideals.

As evidenced in the scenario today, where the far right is in rabid support of a convicted felon and the left is rallying behind someone seen as a pretty aggressive prosecutor. Generally opposite of the traditional view of what 'right' and 'left' would tend to favor.

Authoritarianism tends to assert itself when people feel like they can use it to advance their own stance and minimize opposition, regardless of side. We just don't have people that far left in US politics currently.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 3 months ago

fascism is right wing

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[-] arc@lemm.ee 29 points 3 months ago

I think people who've enjoyed years under communist governments might disagree a little about the comparison here.

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[-] Kalkaline@leminal.space 28 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Both sides have fine people, except for those God damn commies who want to open the border and give all of the people houses, food, education, and healthcare.

[-] yemmly@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

Just stopping by to say I admire your commitment to the bit.

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[-] PresidentCamacho@lemm.ee 21 points 3 months ago

I am an actual centrist and not a caricature. These memes constantly portray us as morons who think "both sides are equal" which is honestly just more inflammatory tribalism which makes it easier to villainize everyone who isn't in your in group. Its the ultimate strawman, and its somehow super effect, since any time I try to make this point I'm downvoted into the floor. I can recognize the flaws in both sides and make informed decisions. Just because I don't wave your fucking banner doesn't mean I'm on the other side it means I vote with my brain instead of blind allegiance.

The problem is that stupid hard left - hard right tribalism is destroying the country. We will NEVER see the changes we want in this country if we are too busy villainizing each other, all that does is push us farther left/right.

If you want real change you should be pushing not for your fairy tale extreme right or extreme left America, push for the first step towards cohesion, we need to overhaul our voting system to ranked choice, this would allow us to have more than 2 parties. So we can get actual hard left, left, center, right, hard right candidates. This will allow us to have parties that truly help our country, and actually represent the people in us. It will curtail extreme political ideologies by allowing, what is a significantly small but loud portion of our population to flounder and die on the ends of the spectrum, and get more common sense political parties into power. Sadly this will never happen, because we have become too good at forcing significant portions of the country into fighting each other versus changing the system.

All of this being said its super clear in this specific election there is only 1 side not trying to steer us off of a cliff. But that isn't the point, the point is we need to come together somehow to fix this broken 2 party system before it destroys the country. I don't feel properly represented, do you?

[-] tigeruppercut@lemmy.zip 10 points 3 months ago

The overton window has been pushed so far right that literal fascism is back on the table, so where does that place centrists?

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[-] TankovayaDiviziya@lemmy.world 21 points 3 months ago

Lol. Had to depict the left with hammer and sickle-- a communist symbol. And it isn't like the communists are constitent on LGBT rights. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism_and_LGBT_rights?wprov=sfla1

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[-] lath@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago

Centrists are the real communists. They just want everyone to come together and hug it out.

[-] Godric@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

Don't you ever fucking joke around in my meme community, you monster

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[-] ThrowawayPermanente@sh.itjust.works 18 points 3 months ago

This is literally the bravest and most important thing I've seen all week. Bravo OP, you've convinced me

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[-] Godric@lemmy.world 18 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Exterminate social groups!?!?!? The far left would never do that to the kulaks, ukrainians, perceived ideological opponents, jews, political opponents, poles, and a quarter of Cambodia, ever.

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[-] Draegur@lemm.ee 15 points 3 months ago

It's more often the far left I see rejecting the centrist candidates and thereby ironically helping the right wing because they refuse to comprehend the difference between right wing "exterminate everyone" and centrist "how about maybe don't do that though".

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 16 points 3 months ago

This is a misframing of the general Leftist argument.

The Far Left, ie Anarchists, Marxists, etc, believe the Capitalist Status Quo to be the mechanism that brings about fascism. Ie, decay of Capitalism (which is a necessary component of Capitalism itself) results in the bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie to ally themselves against the proletariat, in an attempt to violently "turn the clock back."

Historically, centrists have sided with the fascists against the leftists, which is why over time leftists have been less willing to compromise, as said compromise has resulted in backstabbing. Additionally, Centrism itself preserves the mechanisms that result in fascism, centrism just kicks the can down the road.

When put into context, the far-left is willing to do what it takes to stop fascism.

[-] orrk@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago

Nazis literally rose to power because the centrists in Germany allied with them, thinking that the far right wouldn't be that bad.

[-] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 3 months ago

Yep, and for many of the centrists, they stood to profit a ton from collaboration with the Nazis. Numerous companies worldwide profited off of colaboration with the Nazi regime.

The idea that fascism is just a "dangerous idea to be stopped in debate halls" ignores the economic reasoning for why it appears in the first place, which is why liberals always side with fascists.

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[-] fchum@lemm.ee 14 points 3 months ago

All these arguments about left is this, right is that, no one can tell which is what...

It's almost as if just one axis can't describe the unending variety of beliefs people have. I'm sure one day we'll find a way to describe all those permutations of values everyone holds so dear in just one axis going left to right. Yes. Then the tribes will be clearly defined!

[-] Arn_Thor@feddit.uk 17 points 3 months ago

Ah, the good old “it’s too complicated” centrism. No. Some people are inclusive and some are exclusive. It’s not rocket science

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[-] FluorideMind@lemmy.world 13 points 3 months ago

I always see memes aimed at centrists to be smug and disingenuous.

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[-] mwguy@infosec.pub 12 points 3 months ago

Evaluating groups based on their goals rather than their methods is a problem. The Far Left wants everyone's needs met, but historically (and even today in places like China) end up putting a bunch of people in camps and gulags to achieve that goal, squashing dissents to meet that goal, and banning the practicing of religions to meet that goal, kill political dissidents to meet that goal.

If the Left wants to win those Centrists they need to assert their belief in individual rights; they need to disavow the Socialists and Communists of the past and present who implemented those horrible things. When you have prominent American leftists like Bernie on record praising Venezuela; praising the USSR etc... it makes them appear equivalent.

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[-] nlgranger@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago

~~centrist~~ -> far liberal, there I fixed it for you. I hate that stupid centrist word which makes them sound like reasonable people. Deregulation, globalization, privatization of public services, these all have brutal consequences on many people. Selling that as a compromise or a status quo is just an advertising stunt.

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this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
1300 points (100.0% liked)

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