voting 3rd party
not voting also sends a strong message
Pretty much just had this conversation. Except my point was if you want further left, then you have to give Dems consistent victories. Because when they lose they go to the center to find votes. Remember Dems have had all 3 (house, Senate, presidency) for only 4 years of the last 24 years.
Well said sir
Left wing people walked away from the Democrats after 1968, and they had every righteous reason to. Did the Democrats suddenly start embracing actual leftism as a winning strategy as a result? Did a viable third party emerge? Did non electoral activism (much more powerful at the time, like a massive nationwide movement) finally take hold and upend the system to bring about real, sustained change?
Not exactly. We went, in that time, from "great society" and 1-income families who owned their home and sent kids to college, and the civil rights act and all that stuff, to Reagan -> Clinton -> Bush and the fuckin apocalypse that's brought us the current corporate hellscape. The reality of working life in today's America would be unrecognizable to most (white) people in the 1960s. The Democrats, after 24 years of losing elections (ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter), finally tacked hard to the right and started being contenders again, but we lost a lot of ground and we're only just now even starting to undo the damage. The party of JFK and Carter became the party of Clinton and Obama.
I actually think modern left wing people are aware of how terrifying Trump is, and would vote for Biden even if he wasn't a significant step up from the low bar that is the modern Democrats. But yes, the drumbeat of MAGA imposters and the occasional confused leftist saying that if we just stop voting then everything will find a way to work itself out is certainly a thing that exists.
(ironically enough, losing them by fielding leftist candidates like McGovern, McCarthy, and Carter),
And when Gore and Hillary Clinton stuck their head a little bit left on climate change, they lost. And people wonder why Dems go to the center to find voters.
I have no particular love for either of the Clintons but I'm still sad about Gore. Between the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, real action on climate change before it was too late, and the underregulation that led to the 2008 financial crash, the whole fuckin world would be different if he'd been allowed into office after he won the election.
Just think how much further left we'd be if Hillary won. Instead Trump won and the Overton window went off the cliff. How'd those protest no-votes go? *They ended up being counter-productive.
As for Bill Clinton, he learned from Carter being voted out and Reagan and Bush winning. He played the position he had to play.
The greatest expansion of Rights in American history came in a period where Democrats had a very strong string of victories. From FDR to LBJ Democrats dominated in this country, it was also the period in which basically everything we consider the Cornerstone of our nation was developed. It's also the period that the conservatives are trying to roll back as hard as humanly possible.
It didn't work in 1968. It didn't work in 1980. It didn't work in 1984. It didn't work in 1988. It didn't work in 2000. It didn't work in 2016. It didn't work in 2020....
Yeah because they're an idiot. If you actually want to get leftists in power, the answer is to start sharpening your knives. Replace Dems with leftists in your local elections. Organize for ranked choice voting and electoral reform. Work alongside your local labor unions to generate support for pro-labor, non-establishment politicians for Senators and House Representatives.
We can keep the Democrats in power until the time comes, but there's no hope for the party. It's far more likely for the Dems to cannibalize the Republican party after the MAGA movement explodes than for them to ever reform into a serious leftist party. If we want one, we'll have to make it ourselves.
The Left needs to study up on what the Moral Majority did back in the 1970s.
Both Parties have local clubhouses where they decide local matters; who is going to run for dog catcher and should we put a STOP sign on Main Street? If the normal turnout for a meeting was twenty people, the Moral Majority would show up with 50. It didn't cost them an arm and a leg, and they quietly stole power from big shots like Nelson Rockefeller.
start actually showing up where it will make a difference
That's some abused spouse logic. Keep rewarding the people abusing your trust? Maybe they'll recognize you this time? Maybe the reason they always go to the right is because they don't think the left will stop voting for them. Maybe they just don't care. Either way it makes no sense to reward that behavior.
"Pro-democracy conservatives" in an antifascist coalition, y'all crack me up sometimes.
Some Republican Secretaries of State, Mike Pence, military leaders, conservatives in the Justice Department, and similar not-real-inspiring-politically people were some of the most important ones who put the brakes on Trump's previous attempt at a for-real fascist takeover. Without them, I think there is an excellent chance that it would have worked, and we'd be currently living in a society which doesn't have functioning elections or protections for political speech in media or on the internet.
I do understand that our elections and our media right now are not fully free. But that doesn't mean every point on that spectrum is the same. People on the left sometimes like to say Reagan or Bush or Trump 1 or Obama or Biden are so oppressive that it all might as well be fascism, but people who lived through real totalitarian rule further down on the spectrum would tell you that no, no it is certainly not.
I've never voted in an election where I wasn't voting for policies I disagree with.
These kids need better civics education so they know we don't get nice things in America.
Genocide as a policy you can respectfully disagree with
The only illusion is that genocide was ever not an American policy. Talk to a Native American about it.
No. People upset with genocide are not Trump supporters. This is bullshit meant to deflect and defend a fucking genocide. No matter what hat they wear.
I literally tittered like a schoolgirl observing how many yelling-guys from the meme are in this thread with their short top level comments. Taken in aggregate it is funny to me like “oh shit this meme hit a nerve it looks like”
Nobody said don’t be upset with the genocide. They said let’s elect the guy who’s doing a poor job trying to stop one genocide, and not let the guy win who wants 10 genocides.
Lmao no. You can try to walk it back but we've all been here. We're not dumb and we weren't born yesterday. Nobody is refusing to vote for Biden because he supports a country. It's because he supports and covers for them committing a genocide.
Conflating protestors with trump voters is just the cherry on top. This is what genocide denial looks like.
what the fuck are you on
He does nothing but post negative about leftists. This is just who he is. A sheepdog alienating everyone to the left of him and herding others to the right.
I've tried to get them to understand that maybe their strategy just isn't viable if their goal is to get more people to vote for Biden, as they instead serve as a giant wedge, but they basically said they didn't care and leftist votes don't matter.
They have actively contributed to Lemmy.world's Red Scare, where even Anarchists are called Tankies.
A desire to see fascism defeated and have my life end somewhere other than a concentration camp, even if it means a milquetoast neoliberal wins?
Biden's meme-team hard at work I see
The MAGA had slowly coming into view *chefs kiss *
Given the attitudes on this platform I'm bracing for the downvotes, but I genuinely wish you and others like you would stop trying to (nearly daily) insult/shame others into voting the way you want. You should watch this video by Bernie Sanders about winning votes for Biden on merit and logic. Note that he never uses insults, and the reasoned arguments Sanders has been making for months convinced me to stop telling people to vote 3rd party months ago. I'm now willing to ask people to vote Biden in spite of my reservations - not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that incessantly attacking everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive. I won't speak for others but I was won over by calm reason, not being called slurs every time I opened Lemmy.
not because Biden is great but because Trump absolutely cannot be allowed to win.
Oh, here I thought my argument was something else.
It's funny, though, because when you emphasize that Trump can't be allowed to win, the chorus of the MLs and their defenders is "HE CAN'T JUST BE NOT TRUMP, THE LESSER EVIL IS STILL EVIL".
You and others with the same views could try that approach as opposed to reflexively calling everyone who brings up concerns or expresses reservations fascists, complete idiots, bots, and so on. I have no clue why so many people on Lemmy believe that frequently insulting everyone who disagrees with them with the most extreme accusations they can muster makes their position welcoming or attractive.
I'm not trying to attract MLs. MLs and their useful idiots are lost causes. This isn't about convincing people who are already set in their ways - it's about warding off the braindead points of propagandists so everyone can see what they are before making the mistake of buying in.
"I'm allowed to call people idiots, fascists, etc. basically daily because I can justify it." Everyone willing to dehumanize and denigrate others has what they believe to be validating reasons. I can't stop you from trying to win people over by insulting everyone who disagrees, but I wanted to be a voice asking for kinder, calmer discourse a la the Bernie video I posted.
I'm looking at my calendar and wondering, it's not November right? It's still June, or isn't it? As an outsider, why are American leftists basically being called fascist enablers when they are only protesting and demanding reasonable, better policies? And yes, they leverage their only political power they have in the USA, their vote, in June months before the election, to get better policies. Wow what an undemocratic move of them.
Now they are demonized for it, at the same time I've seen nothing here last week when Biden enacted a right wing immigration law with an executive order. So it's okay to try to sway republicans, even though the GOP has racist views on lock as their USP.
It's like they are Schrödingers leftists: powerful enough to prevent Biden from being reelected and it's totally their fault if Trump wins, not the democratic party, but not powerful enough to receive any compromises because they are such a small voter base and so radical with their demands of stopping a genocide and protecting illegal immigrants.
I'm far left. Anti capitalist. Anti authoritarian. But, there are groups on the left or masking of leftists very heavily pushing people not to vote for joe biden in the upcoming elections. They, whether real leftists or not, are not just protesting. I don't love joe biden. I didn't even vote for him the first time. I knew he would win my state and voted 3rd party. But mass rhetoric to protest vote for no one or someone else risks leaving us with donald trump.
You better watch out PugJesus, I just got accused of being a bot in another thread for having this point of view 😂
I'm used to tankie whinging about how they can't support fascist regimes without being called out.
I hit em with the “maybe your views are just unpopular?” and have yet to see a response…
Not in picture: the majority of Democrats that support a cease fire.
Biden supports a ceasefire. The only people resisting a ceasefire are Netanyahu and the Republican party.
Hell of an antifascist coalition that throws its weight behind a party and candidate funding and arming and denying a genocide.
"Antifascist" holy shit that's funny.
Lol, dems and "Antifascist coalitions"
If the 'anti-trump coalition' consists of people voting entirely to avoid a trump presidency, why does the coalition building only consist of capitulation to the views of the anti-trump republicans
Oh no, another PugJesus meme post! Let me prepare myself for the out of touch opinion that he needs to express so much everyday: 🛏️😪
And at every other time of the political cycle they will be on and on about how they're the only ones who really take the threat of fascism in this country seriously.
I mean, they claim that now, even as they say "It doesn't matter if a literal fascist gets in power; support for anti-fascist coalitions is unforgivable!"
Rather than smugly shaming leftists who draw the line at genocide, you could instead spend your time pushing Biden to stop the slaughter, which would instantly win votes. It's telling that you don't 😉
Another pro-Biden liberal trying to push leftists to vote for genocide. (They won’t, sorry)
Funny, last I checked the terminally online MLs were advocating letting Trump win and genocide flourish.
The genocide is flourishing right now, and the worst way to persuade a politician is to promise you'll vote for them no matter what.
Party that supports multiple dictatorships pretends they don't like fascism
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