The Israeli military said its forces came under heavy fire during the daytime operation.
Uh huh. Then why aren't there almost 1000 Israeli military dead and injured instead of almost 1000 Palestinian dead and injured?
More lies again. As always.
This is a ridiculous take. They didn't come under heavy fire because they didn't take heavy losses? It's their very heavy response to the heavy fire that minimized their losses while taking a high toll on Palestinian civilians and militants.
Do you think the hostages were unguarded and free to leave at any time because Israel said otherwise?
Do you think that Israeli forces are indiscriminately bombing and shooting Palestinian civilians to the tune of almost 1000 killed or injured?
Indiscriminately? No. Without adequate or acceptable levels of discrimination? Absolutely.
That's not what I was responding to, though. I was responding to your writing that the Israelis lied about coming under heavy fire because they didn't take heavy losses. The IDF has been known to lie, but that doesn't make everything they say a lie. And your rationale for saying it was untrue makes no sense.
Right, right... and Auschwitz wasn't a death camp - it was a pitched battle between a small group of heroic Nazis and overwhelming Jewish forces. Their clever use of Zyklon-B ensured the Nazi heroes didn't suffer heavy casualties.
/s for all the shitlibs that can't smell all the hasbara stinking up this community.
When did they come under fire? Before or after doing air strikes?
Why were they holding military hostages in a refugee camp?
Because Hamas is just a shitty as Israel. The only difference seems to be that Israel is far, far more effective.
And that Hamas keeps military hostages in civilian refugee campus.
Yes pretty shitty isn’t it.
Do you think it’s an acceptable response to murder 274 other innocent people to save those 4? Are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives to you?
Of those 274, I wonder how many of those will now want to join Hamas for vengeance against the people that killed their families.
I think it's appalling that the de facto governing body in that area would not find a way to separate their civilian population from known military objectives, instead of distributing them throughout a refugee camp and hiding there themselves (of those 274, there were combatants). I think Palestinians deserve better.
Yes me too.
Again, I don’t believe that justifies the actions of the IDF? What about you?
Perhaps you could stop avoiding the question and either call out Israel as well, or say no I think what Israel did by mudering 274 innocent people including 60+ children is acceptable to you.
We just want some clarity in your stance here. As the consensus here is most people are willing to call out both sides, whereas you seem to only want to focus on one side. Some might say you’re being biased.
Some might say you're whatabouting my initial question. Something shitty Hamas performs does not have to be met with something shitty Israel does. This is the inversion of the "but do you condemn Hamas" schtick.
As I pointed out, those 274 people involved combatants. If there weren't combatants or if they were held in a different location than a refugee camp, I would think this operation would have gone very differently.
The Israeli military said it had attacked “threats to our forces in the area,” and that a special forces officer was killed in the operation.
Israel’s military spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said Saturday the hostages were held in two apartments about 200 meters (219 yards) apart. He said the forces moved in simultaneously on both. Rescuers came under heavy fire as they moved out, including from gunmen firing rocket-propelled grenades, he added, and the military responded with heavy force, including from aircraft.
To address your whataboutism, I think netanyahu has a tolerance for collateral damage that most of the world has a problem with, and we will see what the repercussions are. If I were a family member who's loved one was taken, I would think this was a success while mourning the great cost this is coming at. I think it's grotesque to try to simply weigh lives versus lives in a hostage rescue mission in which one side insists on involving their own civilians in the cross fire.
My thoughts on whether this was worth it really are insignificant, I'd defer to the hostages' families and the Palestinians. If I were putting myself in the hostage families shoes, I'd give anything to have them back. If I were a Palestinian, I'd wonder why both sides are willing to treat us so poorly and resent my aggressors (both sides). This isn't a black and white issue no matter how much you want to reduce it to such.
And you're not "both siding" anything, you're riding the previous comment trying to equate the two by saying Hamas is just as shitty as Israel somehow. And I'm saying that only one side is hiding military objectives and themselves in civilian areas here, which is greatly exacerbating the outcomes.
I’m sorry that you’re making it impossible to have a discussion with.
I have numerous times agreed with your assessment of Hamas and only asked you to either agree that the IDF should be held to a similar standard and you just dance around the topic.
Reporting the Israeli military or governments responses are meaningless to any of us. We all know they lie, they have been caught lying. The same can be said for Hamas statements.
I’ll leave it with the ICC and the ICJ, as again your counter points have been to comment on the innocent Israelis whilst disregarding the innocent Palestinians, which is either due to you purposely being obtuse, or at worst you really don’t care about any innocent Palestinian and you have as much a blood lust as Netanyahu.
Either way I will end the _conversation_here and hope that in the future when we look back on this you will know that you were actively supporting monsters, killing innocent people to aid in killing other monsters.
That's... A weird response. I fail to find any examples of bloodlust in my comment, and more so compassion for both sides (not Hamas, just Palestinians). It's like there can't be anything but extreme and binary responses in your world, and I'm not meeting your qualification of whatever "side" you're taking.
My responses to both sides have been well represented, while your responses to one side have been trite (yes, shitty isn't it) while then directing back to something Israel is doing. That, you're very eloquent about. Almost like you don't want to discuss what I'm talking about.
Then you cast me as obtuse because I wasn't polarized enough. This is a terrible war, fuck Hamas, fuck netanyahu, 2-state solution with a reformed PA, hostages need to come home. That's my stance. If Hamas wants to make that more painful because they know netanyahu will roll in guns blazing, who are they getting back at? Because so far it's just the Palestinians who are suffering.
I thank you for finally calling out Netanyahu and the Israeli side in this.
Your previous comments were still in some way justifying this latest atrocity and this is why I gave up.
The hostages could have come home months ago, in any number of the proposed ceasefire agreements that Israel rejected. Search Reuters for the Three phase one from last month or so.
The reason I am being one sided, and not on the side of Hamas, is because Israel has the funding of the USA and UK and could have ended this anytime they wanted to. Ten of thousands of people have been murdered for vengeance and I find that deplorable, and infinitely more deplorable than October 7th. The pre-eminent expert on the Israel-Palestine issue, Norman Finkelstein (Jewish) has been quite consistent in decades of Israeli apartheid and heinous acts and to some degree I understand the actions of Hamas. If every other avenue to peace is knocked down then people are going to fight back. This whole situation has been Israel’s own making for decades.
Just like you, seemingly, said you would accept other innocent people being killed to bring back your family. Well don’t you see this for the other side.
I personally wouldn’t want other innocent people to die to bring back my family. What makes my family worth more than yours.
Anyway, I’m off to bed now, but if you would like to continue this, I’ll be about tomorrow after work.
Israel detains many Palestinians including hundreds of minors without charge, on bases right in the middle of civilian towns. Heck, IDF headquarters is right in the middle of a civilian neighborhood in Tel Aviv. Does that mean Tel Aviv is a legitimate military target?
Is there an active battle in that area? Or is that a secure area far from conflict? Because it sounds like your contention here is that Palestinian hostages are held in secure bases far from conflict. If I were a hostage and had a choice, I'd prefer to be where there isn't fighting.
You’re missing the point completely, the Israeli military knowingly puts their bases in civilian areas knowing they are targets by enemy forces, putting the surrounding civilians at risk.
Where else would it be safe to hold the hostages? The rest of the area is getting bombed to oblivion. Most of the hostages are probably under rubble.
Where would you prefer they hold them? I mean it's not like Israel has left them any other choice.
*** And I'm not saying I agree with taking/holding hostages. I'm simply responding to the question you asked.
I would feel guilt for the rest of my life if I were one of the rescued hostages. My life is not worth that many dead.
Easy to say that while not being a hostage.
Some of the loudest voices in the anti-war movement in Israel have been families of hostages. Considering the track record of their military action, exchanges and peace talks are a far safer way for their family members to be returned, and they are not happy in their loved ones being used as a pretext for a purge of Gaza's civilian population.
But I'm guessing you're not Israeli, and therefore been indoctrinated since birth to see Palestinians as some sort of wild animals to be culled and kept at bay.
How many terrorists would you be willing to let die in order for the military to rescue your kidnapped child?
There isn't a number too high for me. My child is worth infinitely more than kidnappers.
Serious question: How many children would you kill to save your child? The latest numbers I've found show at least 64 children died in this raid.
That is a lot of parents and siblings who will not forget this. They feel pain too, and will not respond well.
Good, now you're beginning to understand how the Palestinians feel.
How many Israelis should die to allow your people to be free? There isn't a number too high. The Palestinians' freedom is worth infinitely more than an Israeli oppressor.
Why don’t you reply to the replies?
It seems you only care about the innocent people of Israel and not the innocent Palestinians.
Shame on you.
Those single quotes are doing some work.
Gaza Health Ministry is not a reliable source, they literally are Hamas, a terrorist organization.
Kinda hard to get a reliable source when Israel keeps killing reporters.
I think i'm slowly turning antisemitic
I'm sure this is a joke, but just in case, try to remember there are lots of Jewish people against Zionism and lots of gentiles for it. Try to remember that.
Yeah, I should have said that, sorry. It's just that this whole situations seems irrealistic.. like, the people that suffered a ethnic cleansing are trying to do the same, 70 years later? Wtf?
The entire history of the nation of Israel is basically proving the axiom that "hurt people hurt people," but on a geopolitical scale.
I love in the US and every year and my brother-in-law is an American jew. Last year it was shit from conservative racists. Today, it's shit because of something Israel did.
My guy is just trying to live his life and gets shit from so many sides.
I sincerely hope this is a poor attempt at a joke because that kind of statement has contributed directly to the current situation. It is not antisemitic to criticize the Israeli government, Zionism, or the IDF and its actions. It is antisemitic to say the reason you are criticizing those things is because they are all Jews.
Conflating those two not only makes it impossible to speak out against the atrocities being committed, it makes violence worse against Jews.
It is not antisemitic to criticize the Israeli government, Zionism, or the IDF and its actions.
This is not the narrative that Israel is pushing or that the U.S. adopts legally.
Zionists are royally screwing over the Jews.
I wonder if there is a number at all for which hammas would say “you know what, holding 100 hostages is just not worth so many dead people of our people, maybe we should just give them back”
The IDF flattened Gaza, I'd be surprised if even 20 hostages are alive at this point. Also even if they gave them back I doubt Israel would stop, this rescue was pretty much done to keep their coalition government together, they haven't been too interested in getting anyone back outside of that.
The hostages are mere pawns leveraged by both military organizations and specifically by the IDF to justify the ongoing genocide. The IDF was killing their own citizens on October 7th alongside Hamas, and the Israeli government themselves issued that report. Israeli blockading of food supplies starves the Israeli hostages alongside the Palestinian civilians.
Why would Hamas ever give up hostages if this is how Israel acts towards their own captured citizens now?
Not surprising as Israel's government has shown the world that they don't care about human life. They literally have concentration camps.
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