It's really hard to take either of them seriously because both have been known to lie through their teeth and blatantly violated the rules of war.
It's almost certain that the truth of what happened will never be known for certain, because basically none of the parties to this conflict have any credibility whatsoever.
Well we could have independent journalists but Israel won’t allow any in and shoots them often.
Correct, and that's very much part of the problem. We have very unreliable information about the state of the war. They stop journalists to prevent information from getting out, and they succeeded.
Historically the figures released by the Palestinian health system have been acknowledged as pretty accurate. From the Telegraph : "In previous rounds of fighting in the Strip, the total number of deaths reported by the Gazan authorities have been found to be broadly accurate, not differing significantly from estimates produced by the UN or IDF. There have, however, always been disputes over the civilian/combatant split."
Oh, how terrible. If only someone could, I don't know, return the remaining hostages and end this. Or stop hiding among civilians. But no,...
PS - downvote away, those who wish Hummus to continue endangering civilians.
PPS - "Your boos mean nothing. I've seen what makes you cheer."
So next time there is a school shooting in america, and the shooter is hiding in the school, we can just bomb the school? I mean, the shooter could have just let the kids go or stop hiding among them. But no...
we can just bomb the school?
"Seems safer than going in, I guess": Uvalde Police
You're better than that. The two have nothing to do with each other.
That's not a great analogy. A great analogy would be if he kidnapped a kid and was hiding in a house full of school-shooters and we would bomb that house to save the kid.
In which case: Yes, that's a good Idea.
I'm going to ignore the incredibly horrifying insinuation that all Palestinians are Hamas-terrorists, and fix your analogy: what if the school shooters were a group of parents, whose children (who didn't do anything wrong) are also in the same school. There's also a couple teachers who can't do anything against the school shooters out of fear of being fired.
How many innocent teachers and children have to be in the school before bombing the school becomes morally wrong?
That is an excellent analogy to illustrate why this isn't a black-and-white situation. Well done, have an upvote!
Israel has said it will not stop even if they release the rest of the hostages.
Good. "Hamas" needs to go away.
Imagine coming home to find your family was burnt to a crisp and your house and belongings torched by a foreign nation's military.
Do you expect this person to shrug it off and say "ah just collateral damage" or do you become vulnerable to propaganda from a group that says "I told you so, they're evil and must be destroyed"?
When we watched Luke Skywalker take up arms and join an armed rebellion against the evil empire after they murdered his family, we all cheered. But when the perpetrator doesn't look like a comicbook villain, things are suddenly less clear.
Point it, Hamas can't be defeated like this. Every bombing of a civilian home creates more Hamas terrorists. When left no choice, people will choose violence. And to them it seems clear that Israel gives them no choice. From the safety of our homes we can see that Hamas is not worthy of any praise and that their actions are deeply reprehensible. But they live amongst the rubble caused by Israeli bombs; they won't see it that way.
This is a violent path that can only lead to genocide, which must be prevented. If we truly want there to be peace, both sides must concede things. Otherwise Hamas or its successor will just come back.
You make a strong point, and all of it makes sense. This is NOT a simple, black-and-white/either-or situation. Upvoted.
I think the Israeli thought might be along the lines of:
Imagine you see your neighbor supporting a bunch of terrorists in their home. Suddenly their home is bombed and turned into a parking lot. Maybe you'll think long and hard when a terrorist group knocks on your door and asks to hide there for a while. The only problem is, do they ask or just come in uninvited?
Fixing this would ideally not involve guns, but it doesn't work this way, at least not well. The only way this can end is if Hamas is destroyed and Gaza is occupied - by Israel or the UN - and rising terrorist groups are infiltrated and nullified before they can reach the stage of endangering their neighbors, until the entire population grasps and can control a self-government process.
If the people of Gaza assist in any way in destroying Hamas, this ends sooner and lives are saved. And the people aren't there yet - Hamas was their government, so...
Again, not a great solution.
But I find it interesting that almost every comment I receive is "But look what the Israelis did to us years and years ago..." These commenters should grow the fuck up. Get over it. And no, I'm not a Native American so I don't have a first-hand experience of it. But just as the Native Americans fought for years by using raids, kidnappings, outpost torching... wow, this looks familiar. And they didn't win either. The same thing is going to happen to Hamas and those who support them.
Again, Hamas has publicly stated that they will not stop killing until Israel is wiped off the map. We can figure it out from there how this has to go.
So what’s an acceptable number of innocent people being murdered to recover other innocent people, in this instance four?
Is 100 acceptable? 1000? 10000? Everybody?
As per your P.S. How come you don’t see the same from the Israelis, they’re endangering civilians too?
What the IDF is doing is terroristic, as is what Hamas has done. So either you’re for terrorism or against it, you can’t say it’s ok for one side and not the other.
The fact is Israel is an apartheid state and they have been stealing land for decades. What would you do if you were a victim of this?
Furthermore, the hostages could have been returned many time with any one of the ceasefire deals on the table, but the Israeli government want blood not the hostages.
You deserve an answer. An acceptable number of innocents, in a perfect world, is Zero. But who is in control of that? Hummus.
As per your P.S. How come you don’t see the same from the Israelis, they’re endangering civilians too?
"Whataboutism" is lame.
The fact is Israel is an apartheid state and they have been stealing land for decades. What would you do if you were a victim of this?
Probably not invade, kill and kidnap innocent people, and run away to hide among women and children. But that's me. Obviously it's okay for Hummus /s
What the IDF is doing is terroristic, as is what Hamas has done. So either you’re for terrorism or against it, you can’t say it’s ok for one side and not the other.
See above.
Furthermore, the hostages could have been returned many time with any one of the ceasefire deals on the table, but the Israeli government want blood not the hostages.
It's too late for that, and Hummus knows it. They could have returned the hostages, but they need to go away. They've already stated their goal is to delete Israel, so Israel should just... what? Let the terrorists live and regrow. Also, Israel is proving that if Hummus doesn't return the hostages, Israel will take them back anyway - and there will be unfortunate casualties because of where Hummus hides, behind women and children. Tough shit for them, I guess, but with Hummus pissing themselves while cowering behind them, they don't leave much choice.
And let's not forget, if Hummus is hiding among women and children, women and children could choose to live and turn those assholes in, or overpower them, or... is there an anti-Hummus underground in Gaza? There should be.
You deserve an answer. An acceptable number of innocents, in a perfect world, is Zero. But who is in control of that? Hummus.
So accepting a ceasefire isn’t a viable option. Your bias here is staggering.
"Whataboutism" is lame.
As it is when you do it.
Probably not invade, kill and kidnap innocent people, and run away to hide among women and children. But that's me. Obviously it's okay for Hummus /s
There are conventions that says that a state in persecution can defend itself.
See above.
Yes both sides are wrong. Just one has a staggering advantage.
The acceptable number of Hamas-Voters is: as many as it takes.
Terrorism must not be rewarded. The gazans voted Hamas into power, they were celebrating on oct 7th. But now that they are the ones under attack, suddenly they don't want to play anymore. But they obviously also don't want to exchange the hostages!
When was the last vote and what is the average age. The majority of people alive never voted for Hamas.
Netanyahu has said repeatedly since November that even if all hostages are released he will not stop the war. He turned down multiple ceasefire deals where all the hostages would be returned in exchange for aid. Your comment is simply incorrect.
PS - downvote away, those who wish Hummus to continue endangering civilians.
Took a chance to be racist? Soo cool dude
I am sorry, but calling a fucking terrorist organization names is racist now?
did you even listen when your parents told you the story about the boy who cried wolf?
"Popular culture Hummus is often seen as an unofficial "national dish" of Israel" - Wikipedia. The use of the term does not indicate nationality, but is meant to denigrate "Hamas". And I would have got away with it, too, if it weren't for you kids.
Oh how terrible if only someone could, I don't know, return all the stolen land back to the Palestinians and end this.....
Also it's incredibly fucking naive that you think hamas freeing their hostages would end this instead of just giving israel more reason to bomb indiscriminately.
Rick and Morty quote, real ironic
https://x.com/sentdefender/status/1799715089936761144
Purportedly one of the hostages was being held in the house of an Al-Jazeera journalist/writer/editor and several members of his family were killed while trying to prevent the hostage from being rescued.
EDIT: Turns out he wasn't an employee of Al-Jazeera, but he wrote opinion pieces for them.
EDIT 2: New article https://www.yahoo.com/news/al-jazeera-denies-connection-journalist-194749492.html - It seems that the female hostage was not the one being held at this location, but rather the three men were. The location is an apartment building and the hostages were being held on the 3rd floor while the journalist was living on the first floor. The claim that the journalist and his family were killed comes from a European based Hamas affiliate.
EDIT 3: Another article - https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-confirms-abdallah-aljamal-was-holding-3-hostages-in-his-home-in-nuseirat-alongside-his-family/ - I don't read Hebrew, but it looks like IDF is confirming that the journalist and his family were the ones holding the hostages, not just someone in the same building.
EDIT 4: Looks like the US media has gotten hold of the story finally, but it's mostly NY Post and Fox news. Looks like they're behind the times because they're just running the Al-Jazeera angle.
Oof Google that name and you get basically zero trustworthy news articles either way. Does "purportedly" even count when it's from twitter? Sounds terrible but I'll wait for a real source
Did you Google the name? Because if you had you'd realize it's not a news organization and they don't make news articles. OSINT stands for Open Source Intelligence, it's basically a discord group of people in the intelligence sector posting things they have heard going on. Looking at their Twitter they seem to cover just about anything and everything, they have stuff about Ukraine, Gaza, France, UAE, Venezuela, etc. Looking for other stories it looks like they beat mainstream media to the story by about 10 hrs.
Looking into the claim itself, it seems that it originated from Israel, but Al-Jazeera's response isn't that the guy is innocent but rather that he never worked for them
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-805525
Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle, which is based out of Washington state. It looks like his information was included on Al-JAzeera because he had written opinion pieces, but wasn't actually employed by them. Take that for what you will, but it doesn't change the narrative much.
Turns out that the guy had written opinion pieces for Al-Jazeera and he mainly worked for the Palestine Chronicle
So, basically, the tweet is false, as it strongly implies that he was a photojournalist, writer, and editor at Al Jazeera. Certainly you agree because you outright made the claim. On top of that, your link clearly states, and I quote, that they are "unverified rumors that hostage Noa Argamani had been held at his home in central Gaza’s Nuseirat." Why would al Jazeera make a claim that he wasn't protecting him if they don't know? But I don't even see a link to their denial, so I'm not sure what they actually said.
No offense, but your post makes me very suspect of your implicit claims that this twitter account is in anyway reliable.
Eh, I wouldn't say it's false. The description of the guy comes from Al-Jazeera's website where they say he is a reporter and photojournalist and he did write for Al-Jazeera. If Al-Jazeera is going to post his work and list his information on their website I think it's understandable that people might think he is employed by them.
As for the attack being unverified, the other link I provided stated that the IDF confirmed that address and house (which is time stamped after the article you are referencing). Additionally, a third party who is identified as a Hamas operative in Europe was referenced as a source for these claims in both articles. I don't know how much more confirmed you can get unless you're holding out for Anderson Cooper to be live from the living room?
Finally, I haven't seen anywhere that Al-Jazeera is denying he was doing anything, the only thing they appear to be denying is that he was employed by them. Even then, Al-Jazeera doesn't seem to be making any articles about the guy, the whole thing was correspondence with representatives of Al-Jazeera, this stuff happened so recently I wouldn't be surprised if Al-Jazeera hasn't had time to post anything yet. For context, this information is <24 hours old, the first US article I see about it was only posted an hour ago.
I meant I googled the name of the person the tweet called out. Not much out there from verified sources is what I was saying. I think a paid for twitter check is probably a negative in the trustworthy dept. Thanks for the extra info though. It just all seems to be a one sided narrative at this point.
Holy shit... this place is lousy with pro-genocide hasbara.
And it seems the mods are perfectly fine with that... as usual.
Damn you were right. Scrolled down a bit and they were all over. Did Hasbara finally find Lemmy, or had there been a new wave of propagandized redditors leaving to come here?
They've been here pretty much since the backlash against Israel began. Some communities have managed to get on top of it and drive them out... but it seems some mod teams are either slow on the uptake or have allowed Israeli sympathizers into their ranks - it's unfortunately a consequence of liberal "every-opinion-must-be-treated-as-equal" thinking.
Amazing how reportedly 0 combatants were killed while this rescue happened.
Well all those people definitely weren't just civilians. Why would civilians be holding hostages? That means those people were combats. That's a good thing then.
It’s up to 274 dead now.
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