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submitted 4 months ago by Beaver@lemmy.ca to c/pcgaming@lemmy.ca
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[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 56 points 4 months ago

On the request itself: based on extracted XNB files, I think that the game currently handles the MC gender in a really, really simple way: pick one text string if the character is male, else pick another string. Adding pronouns sounds like a deceptively large amount of work, and odds are that it would require at least some rework on how the game interprets text strings, in a way that might even affect languages where this is not an issue (like Turkish and Hungarian).

So if I were in CA's shoes, I'd probably compromise by letting the player pick a non-binary character, and use "they" for that character; that would affect mostly English, perhaps Mandarin*.

On the doxxing and harassment: do I need to say that this is fucking awful for those people???

On CA's silence: CA is notably silent and non-combative even on things that affect him directly; such as when the Android players were harassing him because of the delayed 1.5 version. Don't get me wrong, I do think that he should publicly condemn the current events (it's the morally right thing to do), but this might take a while.


*among the languages supported by the game, I believe that this is mostly an issue only in Mandarin and English - because neither has grammatical gender, but both have gendered pronouns "hot-wiring" to the social gender. This is certainly not an issue in Hungarian or Turkish (no grammatical gender + gender-agnostic pronouns), and odds are that it isn't a big deal in Japanese (where people generally drop the pronoun).

I am not sure on what I'm going to say, but I feel like in the Romance languages and Russian, due to the existence of grammatical gender, there's an "intuitive" understanding that the word forms that you use do not need to match your gender identity, both are separated things. I'm saying this because both non-binary Portuguese speakers whom I know simply... well, they use the feminine and done? So it's probably not a big issue. I'd like input from non-binary speakers of those languages though; since I'm not non-binary myself it's possible that my view is incorrect. Also, if pronouns are added to the game, I'm interested on how it would handle gender agreement.

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[-] onlinepersona@programming.dev 41 points 4 months ago

A totally proportional reaction to the request to add a few words to the game...

However, I still find that the petition exaggerates

There is a huge problem with the game though. When starting a new farm you are tasked with creating a character, but there are only two gender options to choose from. [..] For many trans and non-binary players, the gendered language in the game can feel incredibly disheartening, and invalidating, causing feelings of dysphoria when misgendered while they are playing.

That's quite dramatic.

Anti Commercial-AI license

[-] Grass@sh.itjust.works 49 points 4 months ago

I'm sorry but this is the most mentally fragile shit I've heard in a long time. If I was the developer I'd add it in still because it really shouldn't be that hard, but if people told me they felt gender dysphoria playing my game I'd be inclined to give them a refund and recommend some game dev tutorials.

[-] PoliticalAgitator@lemmy.world 30 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Since the discussion is about bullying and threatening people because they don't think people should have autonomy over their gender expression, at worst it's the second most fragile shit you've heard.

[-] Kolanaki@yiffit.net 26 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

"Not being called the gender I feel like makes me feel like less than a person..."

Vs

"Calling that person a gender other than the one I think they are makes me feel seething, homicidal rage!"

[-] Beaver@lemmy.ca 27 points 4 months ago

Easy to say when you’re not being affected personally.

[-] LwL@lemmy.world 15 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The whole thing is phrased the way I phrase acquisition requests at work, everything is true but it's very much written in a way that exaggerates the severity. No major reasons not to add it since it should be quite simple, but that phrasing is bound to tick people off a little. (Edit bc i just remembered this is about doxxing: no of fucking course that's not even remotely an appropriate response and I see 0 justification for it, and I feel like it probably wouldve happened even with different phrasing, this isn't meant to be victim blaming)

Wouldn't be hard to instead say "hey, i have an issue with the lack of a gender neutral pronoun option, it causes feelings of dysphoria for myself and many others which makes me not want to play the game, would be great if that could be added." Or even just leave out the dramaticizing adjectives, that might do it on its own.

[-] mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 5 points 4 months ago

You've pretty much summed up my take on this. Trying to exaggerate the number of people affected doesn't help when you game things out. At best, it doesn't negatively affect your chances, and at worse you can peev off people that would otherwise be willing to help.

[-] mnemonicmonkeys@sh.itjust.works 10 points 4 months ago

Apart from the non-binary players, I don't see a reason why the trans players can't just play as their chosen gender. The only thing I can think of to break the immersion is having kids, and even then the game doesn't do much to differentiate adopted vs birth children

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[-] kaffiene@lemmy.world 16 points 4 months ago

Do you have any experience of dysphoria?

[-] onlinepersona@programming.dev 15 points 4 months ago

Does a male gynecologist need to experience a period to understand that they are uncomfortable? Does a psychologist need to experience mental illness to treat a patient? Does a person need to be world renowned author to identify exaggeration? Do I need to be Trump to know he's talking shit?

Anti Commercial-AI license

[-] Promethiel@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

No. But you at least need the ability to conceptualize the possibility of empathy existing if you can't feel it directly, in order to excel in any of those things (petulant assholery included).

It's also a requirement to have truly nuanced discussion; I fear you are wasting your time in this discussion and if it's not clear why, it's because of a failure of imagination on your part.

[-] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.de 4 points 4 months ago

"Do I need to be part of a minority to pass judgement on their way of expression?"

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[-] Zahille7@lemmy.world 8 points 4 months ago

I'm getting flashbacks to Hogwarts Legacy when trans people were upset about the character creation in that game for some reason.

My very first character in that game was a witch with a masculine body type (I like pants) with bright-ass turquoise hair. The game has issues, but the character creation was the least of them.

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[-] EtherealMoon@lemmy.world 36 points 4 months ago

"I truly do not care if ConcernedApe speaks on pronouns in the game any more,” one user said. “I want [him] to condemn the transphobia and violence against the trans members of the community.”

How in the hell is this his responsibility? We have to prove our allegiances now? If I ever become a game dev I'm keeping my head down.

[-] spikederailed@lemmy.world 13 points 4 months ago

If I ever become a game dev I'm keeping my head down.

Which is apparently not enough unfortunately. Damned it you do, damned if you don't.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 15 points 4 months ago

I'll choose damned by transphobes, if I've got to make someone mad at me lol. It's not a hard choice, and it's not like we're talking about some rinky dink little solo dev anymore

[-] IzzyScissor@lemmy.world 11 points 4 months ago

It's not "allegiances". A literal child asked for a game feature and transphobes started leaking that child's personal information online.

It's not Eric's fault, but it still is his responsibility to make sure there's a safe way to request features without getting doxxed.

[-] EtherealMoon@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago

It is not a creator's responsibility to handle shitheads on a completely unrelated website. That's absurd.

[-] Zahille7@lemmy.world 9 points 4 months ago

Remember when people were sending literal death threats to CDProjektRed when they delayed Cyberpunk? This doesn't surprise me in the least.

Or remember any controversy surrounding literally any game (Hogwarts Legacy, Starfield, just to name a couple recent ones)?

Gamers fucking suck. And I say that as a gamer myself.

[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 34 points 4 months ago

WTF man, Stardew Valley of all things?

[-] mortemtyrannis@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago

If you pay attention to a lot of the undertones in Stardew valley it’s clear (IMO) that Concerned Ape is conservative.

I like the game but I’m always surprised that people think Stardew is a leftist/liberal paradise because it allows same sex relationships.

[-] Stalinwolf@lemmy.ca 33 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Conservative? What in the fuck? The game is a soulful, anti-capitalist love letter to the earth, growth, love, hardship, seasons, animals, and personal relationships. The only thing conservative about it is a reverence for small community and a simpler way of life. I'm left-wing as hell and even I long for those things. It'd be different if the villagers were xenophobic or something, or if the main plot was to keep a Sikh family from settling down into the valley..

[-] ChairmanMeow@programming.dev 19 points 4 months ago

Conservative undertones? I'm curious why you think that. Could you elaborate?

There's strong tones of anti-corporatism and a clear favour towards communal living. And the obvious "care-for-the-Earth" stuff. But I don't think those are necessarily conservative. I could see the argument for Christian undertones, but more in the traditional "love thy neighbour" and "custodianship" sense.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 6 points 4 months ago

Please elaborate!

This is news to me

[-] mortemtyrannis@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago

Well for starters it’s completely capitalistic and supports the idea of work = reward. Big business is bad but small business is good.

But socially, it stereotypes issues and what little different cultures there are.

There are no Asian people. There is one black character whose first quest is to farm a melon. Seriously.

The person experiencing homelessness is the noble savage who doesn’t mind not having a home, it’s his choice.

The alcoholic is saveable and finds the error in their ways.

The abandoned child gets adopted and it’s a happy ending.

There’s no crime.

The teacher is a young white woman.

The mayor is an old white man.

The doctor is white man.

The shop owners are a white man and two white women.

The blacksmith is white.

The town failure who lives in a trailer is saved by the player by getting a house which solves their problems. They are also a euphemism for white trash because putting a ghetto in Stardew would have been a bit too on the nose.

It’s a middle class white person who works in IT idealised society (I.e. concerned apes) where there are simple cause and effect solutions to complex problems. I.e. a conservative ideology.

I like Stardew as much as the next person but I am not going to be shocked when Concerned Ape rebuffs attempts at him to declare his position on trans issues.

[-] grrgyle@slrpnk.net 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I see where you're coming from, but the experience of playing the game doesn't present you with this kind of avalanche of dog whistles. I'll agree that it's a naive and somewhat 1D take on country living, but I think it actually does a lot of work to be inclusive, and show themes of mutual aid, if not actually advocating for socialism or anarchy.

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[-] Kolli@sopuli.xyz 26 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I find it wild that people expect the dev to step up. He makes games and it's unfair to expect him to be/do any more.

[-] Juigi@lemm.ee 8 points 4 months ago

Oh no how horrible.

[-] Renegade_roosteR@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)
[-] WalrusDragonOnABike@reddthat.com 5 points 4 months ago

Sounds more like a way to make almost everyone annoyed. All the text would be more awkward for every player, so people who don't care about NB pronouns would justifiably be annoyed: it would actually be a case of identity politics making a product clearly worse (granted, it would be conservative identity politics that caused it), unlike all the times conservatives get mad because minorities exist in media sometimes. And NBs would know the dev put in more work to change all lines of text to remove all personal pronouns just to avoid adding another option for them. It would be a much more direct "fuck you" than doing nothing at all.

I wish English did not overuse pronouns (personal or otherwise) because of the ambiguity and misunderstandings caused by pronouns, but if its gonna change its going to have to start with people changing how they use the language, not some 8 year old game to try to shoehorn in.

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[-] normonator@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago

He doesn't have to do fuck all. Of all the game developers he doesn't owe anyone shit. He made an amazing game that was his personal project then continued to support it for years when he didn't have to and never charged for added content. If you have a problem with the game that bad then find another one. Vote with your wallet. That said fuck the doxxers, everyone involved is just being shitty.

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this post was submitted on 26 Apr 2024
230 points (100.0% liked)

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