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Estonia considers closing its border with Russia
(kyivindependent.com)
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this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
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There are innocent civilians trying to flee Putin's regime. Civilians who want no part of his war. They should be allowed to seek asylum like any refugee.
Estonia is a tiny country of a little over a million people and we already took on the most Ukrainian refugees per population and we currently have issues housing them. If Russians need refuge in another country they need to look elsewhere.
Then HELP them get to another country in stead of forcing them to stay in Russia where they might be forcibly enlisted or killed for opposing the war or just generally living in misery caused by the war as well as reactions to it.
If they are trying to cross the border here they would need to cross about 4 countries before getting anywhere where they can be accepted, Estonia does not have the resources to facilitate that.
There are also security concerns. In the early 2000nds Russia attempted to create a breakaway region in Estonia with an influx of Russian citizens. Viru county already has a high Russian population and we don't need a repeat of that.
Ask the EU for help funding and coordinating it? I'm sure they have/are working on such projects already. If they aren't, they should be.
Currently there is no such funding available and a lot of hotels are already being used for Ukrainian refugees as actual refugee facilities are full so if they come here in the winter they will just die on the streets.
Even if all that wasn't the case there is a decent chance that this is organised by the russian government to try to create a breakaway region as they tried in the past and succeeded in other countries.
Why don't you help? Go fly to a Baltic state and explain to everyone you meet why it's imperative they let any Russians claiming to be fleeing settle into their countries.
I honestly can't see any reason why they would object to that.
So go on, HELP THEM.
They are also forced to fight in a war for Russia. But it seems that a lot of people who consider themselves left-wing, don't actually care about stopping a war, but to kill as many enemy soliders. They are pretending that their actions are motivated by compassion for victims of war, while actually they would let as many as people needed to die to hurt the person they hate as much as possible. It is hate, not love, that dictates their decisions.
Yes they are, but Russia also uses migration as a pervert way of its hybrid warfare to pressure european countries and to create confusion and disarray .
True, but that's not a reason to categorically turn away all refugees any more than some cars being stolen is a reason to stop all cars.
Pretty sure that the ukrainians are the real refugees here, and not ruzzians.
Oh look, another liberal racist. Of course if ukrainins can be regugees doesnt mean russians arent. We are talking about civilan lives here, just because they are from Russia, doesn't mean they are not "real refugees" from war. Also combining word of nationality (russian) and ideology (nazzi) like that is clearly racist and you must admit is far-right view. Which is ironic that far-right opinions are so often disguessed as fight against nazzism. Even more ironic that Russian government used this same excuse for a war.
I would argue on that. Maybe establish another way to get putin refugees into europe instead of getting your borders flooded. You also have to manage the income to make sure they get proper care in your country.
Actually, it's been shown that, contrary to xenophobic stereotypes (not calling you xenophobic, just pointing out that the stereotypes are), immigrants are overwhelmingly a net economic (and arguably cultural, but that's admittedly quite subjective) positive to their destination country, refugees even moreso than others.
of course they are. The problem I see is that every country has to take care that regugees are properly welcomed and taken care of. They have to get immediatly proper introduction into the country, the language, the common systems of the country, are able to work and contribute (with regards of their strengths and education) and so on, so that they get really fast properly inlcuded and not live for years in some shady, seperated "container homes".
And to assure this you have to regulate the income, because every country has limited ressources. We just need a proper european solution that every country is forced (looking at you hungary...) to take refugees and care for them properly based on some variables like the wealth of the country and so on.
Yeah, you're right that there's a potentially steep initial cost. That's outweighed by future benefits, though, and I'm pretty sure that both the EU and several NGOs have funds and projects specifically dedicated to partly pay for and ease that transition.
It's worth a try, at least, when the alternative is turning away refugees.
It is a nonsense problem created to excuse clearly right-wing anti-migrant politics as left-wing, by saying that you care about people so much, that you can't have them sleep on the street, so better to let them die in a war. Because at that point, that problem is somewhere else, in another country. Better then to see suffering on your own streets.
You are clearly unfamiliar with Estonian winters. The days are below freezing, often in double digits. Anyone not sheltered will freeze to death. And where, pray tell, would we shelter them? Refugee shelters? Full of Ukrainians. Hotels are full of Ukrainians. There's a Ukrainian family living across the street from me, because a call went out for private residences to house Ukrainian refugees and my neighbor took his family and moved in with his parents. There's nowhere left.
But please, continue to tell me how we're not doing enough by giving all the help we had to give to the first victims of this war.
They can have no part in war by overthrowing government that not considering their peoples’ will. Can’t believe how gutless Russians when it comes to regime
Are you fucking drunk? You really think nobody's trying to overthrow the Putin regime or otherwise fight back?
You're acting like toppling a deeply entrenched tyrannical regime is something a couple of dudes could easily do in an afternoon, not something virtually impossible that thousands of Russians have died trying to accomplish 🤦
Lmao, what an edgy take. Have you ever been to a gulag? Cause that’s where you end up when you try to fight Putin.
How many regimes against your own countries government have you overthrown? Calling someone gutless for refusing to go to civil war is cruel at least and almost always hipocritical as well. Easy to type on Internet about why someone doesn't fight a war for you. Are you doing your part in overthrowing their government? Are you physically fighting in this war? Did you overthrow your government when your government went to a war without your support? Let me guess, you are from a country that is in NATO that started more wars that Russia did in a last decade all around the World, that you as well clearly know is for oil and you do not support and yet sometimes not only did you not overthrow your government, but instead voted for people who are pro-NATO and pro war, just because they pretended to be less racist then other politicians.
are they being badly treated? forcefully enlisted? killed? their life is the same as before the full-scale invasion, their life is the same as before 2014. so why the heck do they need protection?
In thousands of cases, yes.
Bullshit. The overbroad sanctions and boycotts as well as acts of the tyrannical Putin government have changed the lives of almost all Russians and foreign residents dramatically for the worse.
Again, talking out of your ass.
For the same reason as all other refugees: because they're fleeing violence, oppression and societal collapse.
We had this with Yanukovich. Got rid of him. Maybe instead of fleeing, they should take over their country? The question is rhetorical.
Comparing Yanukovic to Putin is like comparing apples and orchards. Putin is so much more powerful and entrenched that the very notion is ridiculous.
Here's a rhetorical question for you: are you arguing in bad faith or are you just an absolute moron?
I'm just a Ukrainian living in Kyiv. If I were living in Eastern Ukraine, I would have wished them all dead.
I'm sorry for what you and your country are going through, but it doesn't mean you know anything about how powerful and entrenched the Russian government is. Clearly.
The ones LEAVING Russia to AVOID the war? They've never done anything against you.
I thank God every day that this Ukrainian has you to educate him on the nuances of Ukrainian/Russian politics.
Being Ukrainian doesn't make it any less wrong to assume that it's easy to overthrow Putin and demand that refugees should stay in countries that are likely to kill them and/or force them to kill others.
Maybe, but your faith that Putin's power is absolute, that he is immune to being overthrown is just as flawed.
Why is his table so long? Why has he done several brutal purges of his personal guard? Why has he installed members of his personal guard to high ranking military posts?
These are the actions of a man who looks into a crystal ball and says "wow, getting crushed by a popular uprising is on the menu for me"
Recal how few rednecks it takes to storm a capital building. Recall the relative density of rednecks in Russia.
I'm glad that you have complete faith that an uprising couldn't topple Putin's regime. You should tell Putin, I think he would find incredible comfort in your expert analysis.
And you need to understand the how flat your words must fall on the ears of those who literally have participated in such an uprising as you brush off as impossible.
I agree with you that harming refugees is bad. That discussion sits in the domain of humanitarian ethics, something that I think we all have the prerequisite knowledge for, assuming we have the capacity for human empathy.
On the topic of uprising against a Russian leader, I think you need to accept that your armchair assessment has been informed by a significant amount of propeganda from either side, and that you might not be as much an authority as you might imagine yourself
He never said that it is impossible to overthrow him, he said that it is very difficult. Which is objectively true. Putin is a leader of a superpower, he has nukes for god's sake. This other user is claiming that because they overthrow their president that they could also overthrow a dictator that has been in power for dacades consolidating his power and controls a huge military aresenal at his disposal.
Furthermore. this user from Ukraine, that of course we all simpatize on terms of being at war, has clearly belived in anti-russian racist propaganda so much that he belives that people in Russia are not forced to go to war, but are volenrarly getting shot at in war just because they are so evil and want to kill as many Ukranians as possible. They clearly stated that they live lives just as comfortable as before 2014, and doesn't understand that they are under santctions and has no understanding of what santions actually do to a population.
Do you think the USA being a nuclear power informed Jan 6? Do you think nuclear weapons informed Wagner's march to Moscow?
Why would a dictator comfortable with their claim feel the need to keep other people off the ballot? Why were civilians forced to create highway obstructions for Wagner?
The stranglehold on power isn't as complete as Putin wants people to believe, and he knows it.
The barrier is will, not capacity.
Are you really comparing Jan 6 to fight against Putin? Do you know that leader of main opposition in Russia is in jail for simply being in opposition? Trump is still not in jail after a coup. Of course he can be removed from power, but don't be ridicoulous with claims that people are just lazy or not brave enough. If you even start to organize to critique the goverment in Russia, you go to jail. It is a lot harder to actually form a movement when they arrest you so fast, as soon as you say that you are displeased, let along actually try to form a group for protest, let along an armed revolution. Of course it is possible, but lets not be ignorant and compare it to other regimes.
He is educating him on exclusively Russian politics.
So kill everyone that is fleeing a war? Should Ukrainans fleeing a war be killed as well for not fighting for their country? Or are you just openly racist against Russians, saying all of them are bad and need to be killed.
Did Yanukovich kill anyone who critissized his government? How violent and determined to stay in power was Yanyukovich compared to Putin? Also this is clearly a general anti-migrant comment. "Fix the problem in your country instead of fleeing" is a dangerous and hipocritical rethoric. Why don't you fix it for them if you are more brave then them? Are you fighting in Ukranian war, risking your life being shot at? Or are you at home critisizing someone for not risking their lives enough? There is no reason to force them to fight in a war by not allowing them to enter another country.
Do you seriously believe racist propaganda so much to think that Russians are an evil population that willingly goes to war and not because the ruling class is making them fight? How many people do you know that willingly went to fight in a war and get shot at? Even those that believe that some wars are justified almost never actually do this. And have you even heard of sanctions? Let alone experience life in sanctions? This is most ignorant comment here.