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[-] Guntrigger@feddit.ch 177 points 1 year ago

Everyone here is arguing the benefits of prohibition. I'm just interested to know how much money Rishi (and/or his family members/friends/donors) have invested in vaping and nicotine alternatives.

[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 105 points 1 year ago

It always confuses me to learn that when people want to ban smoking it somehow means ban "cigarettes" and not "nicotine"

[-] gmtom@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because smoking is WILDLY more harmful than vaping.

Yes vaping has SOME health risks, but it's like saying drinking tea and drinking four loko are just as bad because they both have caffeine

[-] morrowind@lemmy.ml 46 points 1 year ago

Bro what tea are you drinking that has nicotine

[-] SomeRandomWords 27 points 1 year ago

I can only imagine they meant caffeine, another common drug that's heavily abused but a little more socially accepted

[-] Lemminary@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago
[-] ComradePorkRoll@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago

How much did big coffee pay you to make this comment? I bet that link installs covfefe!

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[-] askdocsthrowaway96@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

Nicoteane 😉

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[-] vidarh@lemmy.stad.social 13 points 1 year ago

Nicotine is one of the safest stimulants we know, up there with caffeine in terms of safety. There's little meaningful reason to ban nicotine. You're more likely to harm yourself with any number of other things we readily allow.

The addiction potential of nicotine alone is also far lower than people assume, because smoking is highly addictive both due to the rituals and the other substances involved. I tried to get used to nicotine via patches years back to use as a safe stimulant, and not only did I not get addicted, I couldn't get used to it (and I was not willing to get myself used to smoking, given the harm that involves). That's not to say you can't develop addictions to patches or vapes etc. too, but much more easily when it's as a substitution for smoking than "from scratch".

Restrictions on delivery methods that are harmful or not well enough understood, and combining nicotine with other substances that make the addiction and harm potential greater, sure.

[-] affiliate@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Nicotine is one of the safest stimulants we know, up there with caffeine in terms of safety. There's little meaningful reason to ban nicotine.

this is from a 2015 article i found on the NIH library:

Nicotine poses several health hazards. There is an increased risk of cardiovascular, respiratory, gastrointestinal disorders. There is decreased immune response and it also poses ill impacts on the reproductive health. It affects the cell proliferation, oxidative stress, apoptosis, DNA mutation by various mechanisms which leads to cancer. It also affects the tumor proliferation and metastasis and causes resistance to chemo and radio therapeutic agents. The use of nicotine needs regulation. The sale of nicotine should be under supervision of trained medical personnel.

source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4363846/

in case you think i might be cherry picking, here’s something from johns hopkins, and here’s a source from the cdc. here’s something recent from harvard for good measure.

edit: i should be clear that the other sources don’t say exactly the same things as the NIH one, but they do talk about how nicotine itself is very addictive, and they talk about some of the harm it can cause

[-] vidarh@lemmy.stad.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The links from John Hopkins, the CDC and Harvard all focus on vaping, and so are irrelevant to the question of nicotine rather than the delivery methods.

The first link has nothing wrong in it. It's correct nicotine is toxic. So is caffeine - the LD50 of caffeine in humans is reasonably high, many grams. To the issue of ingestion, the issue is toxicity at doses people are likely to deal with.

To the cancer links, again without looking at delivery methods, this is meaningless. To let me quote one small part:

Thus, the induced activation of nAChRs in lung and other tissues by nicotine can promote carcinogenesis by causing DNA mutations[26] Through its tumor promoter effects, it acts synergistically with other carcinogens from automobile exhausts or wood burning and potentially shorten the induction period of cancers[43] [Table 2].

This makes sense. Don't inhale lots of particulates combined with nicotine in other words. There are also many other parts of the article that are useful. E.g. it's perfectly reasonable to accept that e.g. if you are on chemo you should stay off nicotine, and if you breastfeed you should stay off nicotine.

What the article does not show is that nicotine, as opposed to delivery methods like inhalation, is much worse than other drugs we're perfectly fine with.

I'll note that the article also includes things in its conclusion that it has categorically not cites studies in support of. E.g. it just assumes the addiction potential is proven (it is, but putting that in the conclusion of a paper without citing sources is really poor form, especially in a paper claiming to set out the issues with nicotine in isolation rather than smoking).

It also tried to drive up the scare factor by pointing out its toxicity at doses irrelevant for human consumption (e.g. as an insecticide; if wildly irrelevant doses should be considered, then we could write the same paper about how apples should be banned because they contain cyanide).

The "Materials and methods" section also goes on to say "Studies that evaluated tobacco use and smoking were excluded" but then goes on to make multiple arguments on the basis of harm caused by smoking (e.g. "Nicotine plays a role in the development of emphysema in smokers, by decreasing elastin in the lung parenchyma and increasing the alveolar volume") and cites a paper focused on smoking, in direct contradiction of the claim they made ("Endoh K, Leung FW. Effects of smoking and nicotine on the gastric mucosa: A review of clinical and experimental evidence. Gastroenterology. 1994;107:864–78.")

So, yes, if you make claims about how you're going to address nicotine rather than smoking, and then go on to address smoking and other means of inhalation intermingled with the rest, and if you leap to conclusions you've not cited works in support of, and if you throw out risks without linking them causally to nicotine, you can make nicotine look very bad.

They also end with subjective statements they've not even attempted to support properly. E.g. they've gone from "here is why it's dangerous" to "it should be restricted", but if that was valid logic, we should restrict sales of apples too, most cleaning agents, all caffeinated products, housepaint, paint thinners, and a host of other things, it's a specious argument and fitting that such a badly argued paper ends with it. That this passed peer review is an incredible indictment of the journal which published it.

That doesn't mean nicotine is risk-free, but compared to other things we're happy to ingest, I stand by my statement. But don't inhale it.

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[-] JWBananas@startrek.website 6 points 1 year ago

I tried to get used to nicotine via patches years back to use as a safe stimulant, and not only did I not get addicted, I couldn't get used to it

Well of course not. You weren't getting the dopamine rush of a large acute dose rushing from your lungs directly to your brain in a matter of seconds.

What the heck kind of hot take is this?

Regardless, the dangers – including ease of addiction – are well-known and are scientifically proven. Your anecdata of one does not change that.

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[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 13 points 1 year ago

Well, nicotine isn't the part of smoking that causes cancer

[-] Blum0108@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

But it's the part that is addictive and keeps you smoking.

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

If it's not too harmful - what's the problem with being addicted? I'm addicted to coffee and drink at least two cups per day, as do most people around here.

[-] Goo_bubbs@lemmings.world 9 points 1 year ago

Nobody out there is just buying Nicotine gum for the flavor. The overwhelming majority are struggling with an addiction that may one day kill them.

Also, as a former smoker of over 20 years as well as a current coffee addict, I can tell you from personal experience that there is no comparison between the two. Some substances are simply more addictive than others. Nicotine is one of the worst on the planet.

[-] gmtom@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Idk man, I vaped for years many times a day and was able to quit very easily, but sugar and caffeine I just can't, they're so much more addictive to me.

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[-] dudewitbow@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 year ago

If addiction is a problem, should the general use of caffine be banned then? Thats why its kinda odd to specifically ban nicotine.

Choosing to ban specifically nicotine and not caffine is as silly as the idea that cigarettes should be legal but weed shouldnt.

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[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 6 points 1 year ago

The full effects of vaping are not well understood, and while they're almost certainly not as bad as cigarettes, they're also almost certainly still bad for you, and they are indeed still addictive for the same reasons as cigarettes because they still use nicotine.

Further, one main reason their risks remain as poorly understood as they do is that (again, because of the same active ingredient) people who vape often also use cigarettes. The two are closely linked, I don't think my confusion should be so easily dismissed as that.

[-] Chetzemoka@startrek.website 6 points 1 year ago

Oh sorry, I was thinking nicotine supplements like gum and patches. In my mind, smoking and vaping are the same thing. "Don't inhale particulate matter of any kind" is an excellent rule of thumb for all humans in all situations

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[-] uis@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because probably it was defined as burning, not usage of nicotine

[-] Silentiea@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago

But why? The full effects of vaping are not well understood, and while they're almost certainly not as bad as cigarettes, they're also almost certainly still bad for you, and they are indeed still addictive for the same reasons as cigarettes. Further, one main reason their risks remain as poorly understood as they do is that (again, because of the same active ingredient) people who vape often also use cigarettes. The two are closely linked, I don't think my confusion should be so easily dismissed as that.

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Banning nicotine would be going too far. Nicotine in and of itself isn't that bad, it's the delivery methods that can be problematic. In particular the ones where you inhale things into your lungs. But there are smokeless tobacco and there are types of tobacco smoking where you don't inhale the smoke.

[-] BluesF@feddit.uk 8 points 1 year ago

Who would want other nicotine options without cigarettes or vaping? No one is starting out with nicorette.

[-] Plopp@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Many people. There are many different tobacco products that either are smokeless or that you don't inhale that are common in different areas, like dip, snus, snuff, cigars, pipes and what have you. In some regions those are what people start using nicotine with.

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[-] BigDill99@lemmy.ca 24 points 1 year ago

A lot of the alternatives are already owned by Big Tobacco

[-] uis@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

You can go EU-way and say that all vapes should be rechargable(in both meanings), repairable and intercompatible. Basically opposite of what Big Tabacco does.

[-] Buddahriffic@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Disposable vapes should be banned.

Though even the reusable ones generate a decent amount of waste between coil assemblies that get replaced and the plastic bottles the juice comes in. I mean, I hope we eventually get to managing waste at that level, though I'm not holding my breath since it would require huge changes to the way we handle food logistics, which eclipses vape juice waste by a lot per person.

But the disposable ones are ridiculous.

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[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 year ago

That isn't always the case though. Just look at climate scientists.

Some just want to ban smoking because they see how much damage it has done in their community.

But I'd also like to know if there was any vested interests.

[-] Guntrigger@feddit.ch 36 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure what this has to do with climate scientists. What am I supposed to be looking at?

Rishi has a history of making legislation to benefit the companies run or owned by friends and family. I would be extremely surprised if this didn't also have a similar angle.

[-] ours@lemmy.film 6 points 1 year ago

Just some good old "whataboutism". Maybe he sprinkles some climate-change denial into some prohibition discussion to distract us?

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[-] FuglyDuck@lemmy.world 19 points 1 year ago

It’s Rishi Sunak. Of course he has a financial interest somewhere.

It won’t work, though. Hell. He might be getting paid off by big Tabacco- make smoking edgy and rebellious again so more kids start up.

It’s the kind of thing those ghouls would try.

[-] Lazylazycat@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

Rishi Sunak also just promised to ensure cars will be able to drive through heavily populated areas indefinitely and has pushed back plans to introduce electric-only cars. He absolutely does not care about peoples' health.

this post was submitted on 05 Oct 2023
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