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[-] Lembot_0004@discuss.online 86 points 3 weeks ago

Nazism and communism are completely different concepts.

[-] randomname@scribe.disroot.org 27 points 3 weeks ago

... different totalitarian concepts.

[-] CyberEgg@discuss.tchncs.de 60 points 3 weeks ago

Wrong. While a large number of communist labelled regimes were in fact totalitarian regimes (whether they actually were communist is another debate), totalitarianism is not inherent to communism (and it can be argued that a democratic foundation is necessary for communism or that communism is the democratisation of labour). However, fascism is characterised by (among others) an extreme form of authoritarianism (i.e. totalitarianism) that is structured after the Führerprinzip.

[-] midribbon_action 19 points 3 weeks ago

Lots of things can be argued in academics. The largest communist experiments have been totalitarian. The idea that democracy is a core component to a communist society is now more commonly referred to as democratic socialism.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 11 points 3 weeks ago

Democratic socialism isn't socialism, except with democracy lmao.

[-] midribbon_action 7 points 3 weeks ago

Great argument, once again. By the virtue of simply disagreeing with me, you've proven yourself smarter. Wonderful job.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 14 points 3 weeks ago

Instead of doubling down, why don't you do some research on Venezuela to understand what context democratic socialism applies to, or literally just look up the structure of any communist party (Hint: its democratic)

[-] CubitOom@infosec.pub 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Looks at the CCP...

Wow, it's so Democratic, I say nervously.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 8 points 3 weeks ago

Well they regularly act in the interest of the people against the interest of the bourgeois.

But maybe they mostly do what the people want because they just want power and their system rewards that.

[-] CubitOom@infosec.pub 6 points 3 weeks ago

Hahaha, someone over here thinks that the Chinese Communist Party is actually Communist. But also some how Democratic.

Hahahahahahaha

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[-] Hotznplotzn@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 3 weeks ago

@Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz @alcoholicorn@hexbear.net

the structure of any communist party (Hint: its democratic)

Which communist party is or was democratic?

[-] doben@lemmy.wtf 11 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Democratic centralism is a Leninist organisational principle of most communist parties, in which decisions are made by a process of vigorous and open debate amongst party membership, and action is subsequently binding upon all members of the party.

Democratic centralism

The organization of the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) is based upon the Leninist concept of democratic centralism.

Organization of the Chinese Communist Party

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 9 points 3 weeks ago

Same guy, I made this account when I traveled to China, because HB and .ml are blocked. Ironically, .world isn't. I stayed because less drama.

Which communist party is or was democratic

Nearly all of them, though in practice there are varying levels of corruption. A Vietnamese is much more likely to say "socialism means our government has to listen everyone" than an American say "democracy means our government has to listen to everyone". Cuba is a particularly good example of democracy.

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[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 39 points 3 weeks ago

You're doing the same both sides shit as the fascist mayor.

Total control by the working class is not the same as total control by the bourgeois we live under or the total control by fascist weirdos the bourgeois settle for when their system is in crisis.

[-] midribbon_action 14 points 3 weeks ago

You are acknowledging total control in both systems, but are arguing against the word totalitarian to describe them. What is your actual argument?

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

That totalitarian and authoritarian are dumb words because they equate the working class being in control with the bourgeois being in control. Its as silly as saying we need a healthy balance between tyranny and democracy.

[-] midribbon_action 9 points 3 weeks ago

Do you think that you specifically, as a worker, would have more power under totalitarian communism? Your voice and your opinions would be taken into account by the unaccountable leaders? Do you really think you would even be allowed to critique party policy?

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 8 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

unaccountable leaders

I would simply not vote for a leader who I didn't like.

Your voice and your opinions would be taken into account

The average Chinese or Cuban feels more represented than the average American, in Vietnam it seems like the more rural areas feel strongly represented, while the urban residents are more likely to feel they have no power and the whole system has become rotten.

A few years ago, Cuba had a referendum on a new constitution. After years of local discussions, revisions, and more discussion, they came up with a document that most everyone agreed with, it passed with over 90% support.

[-] midribbon_action 6 points 3 weeks ago

That's a great statistic, >90%. Shows up all over the place in communist literature. I'm sure it's a sign of a well functioning democracy with diverse opinions represented.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 9 points 3 weeks ago

If you think Cuba lied about the 85% turnout and 90% in favor vote, it should be trivial to disprove via statistics. Hell just ask 30 randos how they voted.

[-] midribbon_action 6 points 3 weeks ago

I didn't say they lied. I implied it's illegal for citizens to disagree. Putin also wins with similar percentages, and maybe there's some fuckery, but our best evidence is that Putin is similarly extremely popular in capitalist totalitarian Russia.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 7 points 3 weeks ago

You can just go to Cuba and ask them. Don't book a flight from America or mention that you did or the US state department might cause problems, but its not like Russia.

[-] midribbon_action 6 points 3 weeks ago

You're right, it's not like Russia, except they are both totalitarian.

[-] xep@discuss.online 3 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

The average Chinese or Cuban feels more represented than the average American

Could you please cite a source? How much of that is toeing the party line so they don't get asked out for tea?

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 5 points 3 weeks ago

https://ash.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf

But the og source is just talking to people who live in China, either in China or traveling to nearby countries.

[-] Quittenbrot@feddit.org 11 points 3 weeks ago

Looking at the Soviet take in the topic: both were totalitarian, though. I wouldn't call them "two sides of the same coin" as that mayor, but each on their own used a totalitarian approach to achieve their goals.

In the end it won't matter much to you if you're locked up because you have the wrong religion or because you are the wrong social class.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 8 points 3 weeks ago

If I was a rich landowner in Soviet Russia or Mao's China, and I didn't want to go to jail or be made to wear a silly hat and paraded around town, I would simply not burn my crops and instead support the workers. But maybe I'm just built different.

[-] Quittenbrot@feddit.org 10 points 3 weeks ago

Hm, but you wouldn't say that everyone persecuted in China or the Soviet Union deserved said persecution, would you?

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 9 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

No, there were definitely mistakes made, which are worth studying. I don't believe the solution is less worker control, which nearly every western perspective on any such cases aims to make.

Edit: Life and terror in Stalin's Russia is a pretty good book on the subject.

[-] Quittenbrot@feddit.org 6 points 3 weeks ago

That sounds like although you see some errors, you overall agree with their approach of totalitarianism?

I don’t believe the solution is less worker control

Was/is there actual worker control in these systems, though? Are the migrant workers from rural areas in China actually in control of the country? How much influence did the ordinary workers actually have on the party elites running the countries in the Soviet Bloc? In the end, the ordinary workers didn't seem to be so happy with their control, when they opposed and toppled the system.

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 4 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I have never been to the USSR and its too vast a subject spanning too long a period for me to develop strong opinions, but I know all but the lowest ranking party members had to be elected, and during purges, every member would be tested and their constituents were invited to air any flaws in the members actions or character.

In the end, the ordinary workers didn’t seem to be so happy with their control, when they opposed and toppled the system.

In the end, Yeltsin shot the congress building with a tank to stop them from meeting and carrying out what they were elected to do.

I haven't had too many political conversations in rural China, but I did see more nostalgia for the past and individual patriotic displays. Mao print mugs aren't uncommon, but in the city a young person told me it was all passe.

But to answer your original question, the question is like "do you think there can be too democratic of a system?" The alternative to total worker control is partial or total control by the bourgeois or aristocracy or w/e.

[-] midribbon_action 4 points 3 weeks ago

It all comes down to, do you believe that it's possible to mislead people? And relatedly, can you deceive a whole population? I have seen so much evidence that propaganda works, living in our shared capitalist hellscape. I cannot see a >90% agreement, on pretty much any question ever formulated, without a loooot of programming. Nothing is ever that popular naturally. These are not populations that are routinely exposed to differing opinions. Totalitarianism, in all it's forms, has these same indicators: screwy election numbers, cults of personality, government enforced and socially enforced orthopraxis and orthodoxy, etc. It is not a system where you have anything resembling agency.

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[-] Quittenbrot@feddit.org 4 points 3 weeks ago

In the end, Yeltsin shot the congress building with a tank to stop them from meeting and carrying out what they were elected to do.

That was 1993, so after the coup attempt by the Communist Party and after the dissolution of the USSR in 1991. Up until that point, there already had been widespread cracks throughout the entire Union and its bloc - or what was left of it. What happened a few years prior in Beijing's Tiananmen Square is certainly known to you. Somehow, the average workers were of the opinion that this system didn't work for them, there was widespread discontent. Isn't that something that should be considered in a form of reflecting self-criticism, given that officially, the power should be in the hands of the working class.

the question is like “do you think there can be too democratic of a system?”

Imo, there absolutely can be a "too democratic" of a system. If everything is decided by majority alone, there will be very little room for minorities. The real value of a system comes from how minorities are treated in it.

The alternative to total worker control is partial or total control by the bourgeois or aristocracy or w/e.

Yet, in stable democracies, you find awfully few labour camps for political opponents. Why don't these systems need totalitarianism to be stable and widely accepted by their citizens? Why do these countries regularly score highest in terms of happiness of their citizens?

[-] Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 3 points 3 weeks ago

there will be very little room for minorities

When a liberal country says this, the only minority they're protecting is the capitalist class.

Are China and Vietnam less democratic because they grant autonomy and special representation to minorities? I wouldn't say so, because democracy means rule by the people and those people's unique situations mean they're affected differently by the same rules, so its more democratic for them to have their own institutions and protections.

Honestly I am divided on the subject; you have a hmong sending their children out to beg or dance on a school night, its the end result of a cascade of social failures. I don't think it could be solved by giving the minority fewer tools to deal with it.

few labour camps for political opponents

All prisoners are political.

But also spending a few months working alongside the people you're supposed to represent is an ideal punishment for failures to represent them, IIRC both president Xi and his father were purged at various points.

Imagine if the people of Arizona/WV could have recalled Kyrstyn Synoma/Manchin and sent them to plant trees for 6 months in 2020.

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[-] Lumisal@lemmy.world 14 points 3 weeks ago

Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy then by your logic?

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 11 points 3 weeks ago

There are plenty of systems under the umbrella term of "communism," not all of which are totalitarian. If you're specifically talking about Marxist-Leninism (the Soviet and Chinese implementation) then yeah fair that sucks, but when you just say "communists" you're also including folks like council communists.

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[-] biotin7@sopuli.xyz 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Here's another dumbass. Capitalism IS an extension of totalitarianism.

[-] HowRu68@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Nazism and communism are completely different concepts.

In theory only, you are right.

But Fascism and Communism share a lot in practice though. Both use absolute rule and an authoritarian state as a mean to control populace. No democracy, rule of law, human rights.

[-] Cethin@lemmy.zip 25 points 3 weeks ago

Communism is not, by definition, authoritarian rule. Sure, a lot of examples exist where that's the case, but that's only because anything less couldn't withstand the CIA starting a coup. It isn't required, but you need something strong to resist anti-leftist governments doing everything they can to overthrow you.

[-] untorquer@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Which is really fun because in creating the authoritarian state you've undermined communism in ideology and remain as such in name only.

[-] Valmond@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago

The USSR did exist "in spite of the CIA" and look how well that went.

[-] 4am@lemmy.zip 6 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah, after WWII they had to maintain a strict authoritarian rule to root out traitors and espionage and even still it eventually got beaten.

You do realize that the argument you are making is “rich bullies will always ruin attempts at socialism so we should just let those rich bullies have all the power because at least we’re not being oppressed by a government”

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[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 23 points 3 weeks ago

Communism, by definition, cannot have a state.

[-] HowRu68@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Well, the CCP by definition does. They call it China .

You do acknowledge that Engels & Marx ideas have never successfully been realised anywhere at any time in History?

[-] irelephant@lemmy.dbzer0.com 19 points 3 weeks ago

The CCP is a (well, not really anymore) socialist party with the intention of building communism.

[-] HowRu68@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

I KNOW what communism should be according to the manifest. I also know that socialism is intented as a phase according to the theory.

Now, back to Praxis; The CPC calls itself communism as in Communist Party of China (CPC) . So yeah. Also in older days many countries have used socialist or communist as synonymous. But, and I agree! in theory, communism was never reached.

Hence the differences in my ealier answer: In theory they are Nothing alike. But what is known and proclamated about communism& socialist does in fact share a common authoritarian kind of Government. Like, China, USSR, Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba etc.

[-] SmoothOperator@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

The CPC calls itself communism as in Communist Party of China (CPC). So yeah.

I know it's a tired comparison, but the Democratic Republic of Congo calls itself democratic, but is authoritarian.

North Korea is also officially called the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

What does that mean for the praxis of democracy?

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this post was submitted on 13 Sep 2025
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