Meanwhile, civilians in Gaza endure a deepening humanitarian catastrophe. Law and order has broken down across the coastal enclave as Hamas’s civil control over northern Gaza and large swathes of the south has been ended.
I don't think the problem is Hamas failing to provide "law and order" but Israel's ongoing genocide that is causing the "deepening humanitarian catastrophe".
is that analysis based on the fact that Gaza now looks like a Metro 2033 area ?
Hamas and their supporters need to be burned out of Gaza.
Their supporters are 72% of Palestinians ^[[1]https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/]. That would be genocide. It's not that simple.
Their supporters are 72% of Palestinians. That would be genocide. It’s not that simple.
Well it happend in the past with the Nazis, despite the large number of supporters for them the Allies attacked and as a german I must say it worked out pretty well for us.
We did not kill 72% of the Germans, or even 72% of the Nazis in WW2. I do not support Hamas, but I don’t support genocide either.
Thats his point. No need for genocide if other options are available. Many many Germans supported the Nazis and denazification after ww2 was a thing
I'm not sure there are realistic strategies for the region that would be similar. Who is going to take over administration of Gaza when Hamas is out? Israel is. Germans didn’t hate British people. They did not spend generations teaching their children that Americans were subhuman scum. Your average German was able to snap out of the delusion easily. You and I both know that isn’t a plausible reality in Gaza.
I’m not saying there is a need for genocide. But Hamas could agree to terms tomorrow and the war would end. Then it would start again. There can be no peace in that place. Not while both peoples live there. Maybe when Iran builds nukes? MAD is pretty high price to pay but it might sober everyone up a little. Hard pill to swallow.
The allies did specifically bomb civilians in WW2 though. And Nazis weren't usually using human shields.
No, they were using them as target practice like they did to my great grandfather. First they took him to concentration camp, then they took him and others to the forest to have some moving target practice. Thankfully he was able to run away and hide.
When it comes to human shields, the only independent verification back in 2014 (Amnesty link) is of Weapons (not rockets) hidden at a vacant school, situated btwn 2 UNRWA schools housing displaced people, by a Palestinian armed group.
The Guardian journalists had encountered a couple individuals in 2014 too.
HRW on Laws-of-War Violations 2009
Amnesty on Hamas War Crimes 2023
Yet none of those come remotely close to making hospitals and schools bombing targets. Even if all the IDF claims were true, that does not exempt those hospitals and schools as protected under international law.
Additionally, let's look at how the IDF uses Human Shields including Children (2013 Report)
We did kill a lot of them and a lot of them were supporters. By that time it was pretty much the whole country and the they stil decided to attack them.
I'm not saying that killing a lot of Hamas fighters and supporters is the solution, you also have to change things in Gaza drastically, like let them live and rule independently because this whole tyranny over them pushed the people into the arms of those degenerates of the Hamas. But having that much supporters should also not prevent us from fighting the Hamas.
We didn't fight Nazis in a dense urban environment.
spicy comment of the day
They are getting what they deserve then. October 7th was an atrocious terrorist attack. It was not an act of war, its victims were not legitimate targets of war. They were children, the elderly, and concert goers.
You think the ten year old who has been told his whole life that the highest purpose he can serve is to jihad against Israel deserves to be killed for it? What if he hasn't even done anything?
Maybe you think he deserves death for his "crime". I have a bit more empathy than that.
Adults giving material support is closer to what I meant. Sorry it's been a long day. But for the adult Palestinians that actively took part in Oct 7, yes absolutely. Also for those that continue to use civilians as human shields, or use hospitals, mosques and schools as weapon caches.
What's "material support"? Bread? Does giving bread to someone who hates Israel mean you deserve death?
What if the person encourages attacks on Israel? What if it's a mother feeding her Hamas son who joined Hamas because the IDF shot his brother's kneecap? Does that mother deserve death? What about the families of these other 42 palestinians?
I'm just curious how far this death by association should go.
That was kinda obvious since the beginning.
I'd say it's kinda obvious since about 80 years. The whole region is messed up.
I'm convinced that Hamas had no plans to destroy Israel with the 10/7 attack, they wanted to show the world just how bad Israel can over-react.
So they went out of their way to commit an atrocity to inspire a genocide.
Not it. They did it because Iran wanted to stop the Israel and Saudi peace talks. And make a distraction for Russia.
That's literally a transcript of Netanyahu speaking at the UN.. Interesting how you consider him a credible source.
Both their official reasons and expert analysis show otherwise. Something about liberation from a violent apartheid regime.
That's an interesting idea. Though i think we must not underestimate internal Gazans cause. The HAMAS is basically running anti PA military dictatorship in Gaza enforcing an islamist rule through corruption of lower echelon political actors. The only way they managed to remain in power despite basically defrauding the UN and the Red Cross is by spreading the narrative "hey, we are yout heroic liberators (and everyone who disobeys us is a ******* jew)". Not that they're like the nazis, by "liberation" they mean "genocide".
The problem is that the HAMAS is... not very good at freeing Palestine. The only way they attacked Israel before is through rocket bombardment using 250$ ammo. Problem is that they never got out to fight Tsahal. However their authoritarianism only strengthen with time meaning HAMAS was very not freeing palestine and very much oppressing palestinians. So people started asking question about what the hell all that military budget and requisition were for. So they planned a "boots on the ground mission". This was supposed to be a show of force to make them look good. I'd even believen advisors suggested this idea. Except the main issue with the HAMAS is that, to them, all this garbage we call "guerilla", "civil defense", "policing", "resistance", "show of force" means the exact same thing : good ol' ethnic cleansing.
And an ethnic cleansing on a population of 7 000 000 000. Which means if you're an israeli citizens, yoiu likely have connections, be it former classmates or extended family, to a victim of the attack. this did not help with the Israeli state of mind rigth afterwards. [](to show the world just how bad Israel can over-react) That's exactly where I think they should have stopped being insane nazi islamist and read actual books. See I'm French, here we see U.S forces in WW2 as heroes, they are the "Libérateurs", same for the Brits. You want to know what's weird ? We do that, despite the fact the U.S.A.F sometimes entirely destoryed the wrong french cities. Yes that happen, for exemple in Royan. We know that, they killed our own peoples, the Liberation of France wa just american G.Is riding through France to enter Germany, but it doesn't change our opinion. Why ? Because the Vichy Regime were a bunch of fascistic traitors whose stupid and submissive policies led us to this situation. Same thing for the IIIrd Reich who was occupying the country.
No one will side with the HAMAS, few will side with Gaza despite mainstream media broadcasting many pro-palestinian voices (because now that the war is on it's cooler). Because people don't like flat out ethnic cleansing and they especially dislikes when their perpetrators run countries
It's a complicated history but even the Hamas Founding charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. The 2017 Revised charter accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised version. Hamas has committed atrocious acts, there's no need to make things up about Hamas to show they've done terrible things.
Ending the occupation and having a Palestinian election for the Palestinian people to choose their own leadership is the way to diminish support for Hamas and other Armed resistance groups. Further terrorizing the West Bank and Gaza will only increase their support, which has been shown historically not only within the Occupied Palestinian Territories but throughout history.
The Blockade, described by the Israeli Defense Minister as a 'total siege' long before 2023, was a strategic decision in 2005.
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
Gaza Blockade is still Occupation
Further terrorizing the West Bank and Gaza will only increase their support
That I can fully agree. As opposed to civilian movements and institutions, armed groups tend to survive warfare. Although I doubt those armed group would go quietly as pacification will have to go through a deconstruction and realisation of their atrocities. That means justice, and the armed group won't like it so we must be ready to see them turn their violence against Gazans. Which they have already done in some way to impose their islamist doctrine. The blockade and especially its enforcement by lots of military forces was brutal and only provided target for the HAMAS to look "badass". Again we see the deleterious effects of Israeli security policies to consider every form of threat as a sign they're about to board the trains again. fun facts
Woman in the home of the fighting family, whether she is a mother or a sister, plays the most important role btw on that one, it might seem innocuous but that very sentence and the whole Article Eighteen means that the HAMAS do treat civilians, civilians lives and civilians activities as part of their combat operations. They are a military organization rrefusing to limit themselves to military matters. That is bad
I agree that no article of the 1988 charter states "time for Holocaust 2 : electric boogaloo" however :
peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine Article Twenty-Two: For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.
Oh that's why. Article 22 is pretty much a summary of the Protocols of the Elder of Zion, the document used to justify every antisemitic persecutions throughout the 20th century and the Holocaust. So they did not say they're going to do it, though they use all the reference, all the concepts, and all the propaganda tactics of the one who did it before. I... don't trust them Especially since reforms of the charter did not actually translate into any change or improvements in education or internal propaganda. Though fighting them only pushes them abroad only to come back right after. Right now we see that the HAMAS is already back at securing their political alliances by diverting aids towards their smaller political allies so they can resell it at high prices. All that hit won't end HAMAS, even militarily speaking the current tactic is unlikely to work. It probably worked damn well to liberate Caen from the 12th SS Division in 1944 but the situation now is pretty different
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