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Just a thought process that led me into thinking too much about who I actually am… (self.mtf)
submitted 9 months ago by SquishedFly to c/mtf
15 comments fedilink hide all child comments

(First time posting here, hi you cuties ^^/)

For context, I am 18 MtF but don’t have any medication yet because of the local healthcare system. To add to that, while I am in therapy, I’m afraid to talk to my therapist about this because I will need a confirmation from him that says that I can have HRT to actually get HRT. This puts me into this weird place where I very much should talk to my therapist about it but also shouldn’t because it might hinder me from getting hormones (I hate this system). Of course, I don’t want to replace my therapist with you, I just want some of your thoughts and experiences with this.

Long story short, pretty much everyone I’ve ever heard talk about this has always said that there is a difference between attraction and gender envy. The only issue is, this line doesn’t really exist for me.

If I think someone is cute, I can never really differentiate between the feeling of “I wish I was this cute” or “I wish they would hug me / I could hug them”. What makes all of this even more complicated is that I am very much unsure about my sexuality. Since the thought of sexual interactions actually kinda disgust me, I guess I’m ace? But then again, I also kinda feel an attraction to more feminine presenting people? Yet I am also open for any other, or no gender at all? And more importantly, is this feeling of wanting to be someone I think is cute just from me hating myself? Does that mean that I’m not trans? And why are other trans people saying that there is a difference?

Does anyone of you also struggle to find this line between attraction and gender envy? If yes, what does this feel for you? And if no, what are your thoughts on this?

PS.: You shouldn’t feel the need to validate me. The last thing I want is to be stuck in some sort of echo-chamber. If what you read, makes you think I’m not trans then please please please tell me so.

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[-] pixeltree 13 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I have a friend who's a trans ace lesbian! I asked her if she had any advice for you! She said:

Alright, my thoughts. In chronological order: Yeah, that fucking sucks, but you need to bite the bullet and talk to your therapist because there is no other way for them to know what you want. If they're a good therapist they'll hear you out and help you figure out what you want. That being said, shit is still really scary and I hope you get treated with a modicum of respect by your local healthcare system (long shot, I know, but a girl can dream for her sisters-in-arms)

Finding the line between attraction and gender envy is famously difficult. The way I figure it out on a case by case basis (as an ace lesbian) is I give myself a quick questionnaire.

1st q: Do I want to wear their outfit?

2nd q: Do I want to get to know them?

3rd q: Do I care about their opinion of me?

4th q: Do I have a positive reaction to the thought of being in a relationship with them?

No hard scoring here, it just helps me organize my thoughts, usually I'm able to figure out how I feel by the end of it. (and a little secret, you can be both attracted to someone and feel gender envy towards them)

To figure out if your trans is mind numbingly simple and horrible complicated at the same time. To find out ask yourself, "Do I want to be X gender?" and the answer is different from what you were assigned at birth and you like the label of trans, congrats you are trans. The specifics are different for everyone, and we all have different feelings about gender. What matters is what makes you feel comfortable with yourself not what meds you want, not what clothes you want to wear, not what surgeries you do or don't want to get. All of that is flavor, stuff you can figure out whenever.

Pass on that I hope things get better for them, and to not give up, because that's the only way things will for sure stay the same <3

[-] SquishedFly 4 points 9 months ago

Thank you so much. She's right, i gotta talk to my therapist about it... I'm probably overly scared about this anyways because he did tell me (multiple times) that I will get that write-off from him 100%.

Knowing that I'm not alone in this struggle is an immense amount of help, thank you. I think I'll take a screenshot of this comment and take a look at it whenever that feeling comes back. <3

[-] BautAufWasEuchAufbaut 11 points 9 months ago

If what you read, makes you think I’m not trans then please please please tell me so.

I completely understand looking for any straws to get clarity, but I don't think you should ever believe anybody who tells you something about that. Only you know what you want!
I am trans and lesbian (although I just learned about the term "sapphic" and that's kinda neat), and I can relate to the difference being hard to tell. I just know that when I figured myself out more (and started hrt), this difference became much clearer.
A friend of mine recently told me about how she as a (formerly repressing) trans person got used to pushing feelings away, that she has to re-learn figuring out what she feels. While I don't know if I can relate 100% to her, being trans can be super difficult emotionally. Maybe take breaks and allow yourself to postpone decisions you don't need to be sure of today.

[-] BautAufWasEuchAufbaut 5 points 9 months ago

Oh and also talking for the first time to a therapist was like super stressful for me, but it became really nice in 3 nanoseconds after I finally had the courage. I don't have any hints how to make that easier.
Good luck, wishing you all the best!

[-] SquishedFly 1 points 9 months ago

but I don’t think you should ever believe anybody who tells you something about that. Only you know what you want!

Yea, I believe so too, which is exactly why I'm asking this. I want to get as many perspectives from people to compare with my own feelings.

I sadly don't feel like I'm able to take breaks because some appointments are connected to other psychological stuff that I NEED to deal with as soon as possible. But generally speaking, you're right... Transitioning isn't a sprint.

[-] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Long story short, pretty much everyone I’ve ever heard talk about this has always said that there is a difference between attraction and gender envy.

Huh? We must have hung out into totally different spaces. I've seen plenty of posts and memes about being unable to differentiate envy and attraction.

For me, the two have often been linked, especially in regards to people I know. My biggest crushes when I was young kinda fit a type. Slim face, long dark hair, thin; all things I now realize I really envied. I fell for someone like that before I even saw their face. It wasn't always envy, as I often didn't envy 100% of their traits, but envy was usually a big part of it.

Those crushes were definitely crushes, and that envy was definitely envy. These things aren't clean and separate for everyone in every instance. Such is the case for some of us 🙃

[-] SquishedFly 2 points 9 months ago

I mean, I am very new on here and the only related subreddit I am on is r/blahaj (and nothing stood out to me in OneTopic's videos so far). In any case, I'm very glad that I'm not alone in this.

[-] TotallynotJessica@lemmy.world 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

No problem. The egg_irl and traaa subreddits were very important in cracking my egg, so I'm well versed in trans memes. I learned that there are a great diversity in trans experiences, contrary to the narratives of ignorant doctors and insecure gatekeepers.

Some people transition back to their assigned gender and there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, invalidating a person who hasn't settled on a label can delay their progress. If someone doesn't end up identifying with a label, affirming them will do more to help them find their identity than insisting that they're "trenders." Transmedicalists often claim that invalidation is "in the person's best interest," but they're flat out wrong. They're just bullies.

Sexologists and evolutionary psychologists often rely on biased assumptions about sex and gender that are outdated and close-minded. Blanchard assumed that trans people were either homosexual(attracted to the opposite gender by some bizarre logic) or autogynophilic fetishists(attracted to the same gender) that weren't actually transgender. Further investigation revealed that a great number of cis people experience this supposed "autogynophilia," because imagining oneself in sexual situations is hot. Even if someone does have a fetish, they might be trans, or they might not. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Evolutionary psychologists often assume that queer people mostly exist because of kin selection, basically that they help their straight relatives with shared genes reproduce. However, queer people can and do have kids. In fact, most trans people are attracted their own gender to some extent, meaning they can and do reproduce genetically. Trans people might actually help gay cis people reproduce, with gay transmascs having kids with gay cis men, while transfems can have kids with cis lesbians. Even straight trans people can reproduce with other trans people.

Cis gays can have sex(or do surrogacy and IVF in the modern day) with the opposite sex while raising the kids with their romantic partners. Queer people might get pressured into having kids. Ace people might not be aromantic and have kids because they love their partner, while aromantic people that aren't asexual might have kids because they fuck. NBs can reproduce for similar reasons to any of those listed depending on their specific orientation and identity. If anything, trans people might be more prevalent because they make gay people more likely to reproduce, making trans identities an evolved adaptation.

Sorry for the info dump. I'm a huge nerd 😩

[-] SquishedFly 2 points 9 months ago

Don't apologize for this, it was super interesting to read. Thank you for the insight, we're all nerds here I feel like.

[-] ThatFembyWho 5 points 9 months ago

Medical gatekeeping sucks. I'm sorry you feel like you can't be honest about yourself. Consider this, you said if you tell your therapist the wrong thing, it could jeopardize access to HRT... that is your main concern. I feel like that alone is a major indicator of your identity. You seem to know your hormones are wrong.

AGP (autogynophilia) is a debunked pseudo-scientific theory. I see that it still exists in your doubts. The notion that trans women exist because we are sexually attracted to women is just wrong lol. That doesn't happen. Unfortunately there are still therapists out there who follow their "feelings" and outdated approaches that are not recommended by WPATH SoC. If you have such a therapist, find another.

People are only telling you that sexual orientation and gender identity are different things, which is the modern scientific understanding. That doesn't mean that you can't be a woman who also finds women and feminine people attractive. You definitely can! Your sexual/romantic attraction implies nothing about your gender.

It's OK to be uncertain about your sexuality. You're only 18! At 18, I was super homophobic and repressed any possibly non-hetero attractions. Now at 40, I know that I am pansexual, with a strong preference for feminine people (but not exclusively). Also I'm demisexual and most likely poly. But it took decades to figure this out.

It's OK to be uncertain about your gender. Have you tried possible affirmations, like a preferred name, pronouns, clothes? How did you feel?

The whole tone of your post reads like a trans woman who is scared to do something or learn something that invalidates her. But we are all different. Even if 100 trans people agree on one thing, that doesn't make it universal.

You are valid.

[-] SquishedFly 3 points 9 months ago

I'm luckily at a therapist that specializes in LGBT topics so I hope that my concerns are for nothing anyways. Oh how I wish I could just turn off attraction.

AGP (autogynophilia) is a debunked pseudo-scientific theory. I see that it still exists in your doubts.

What's even scarier is that I didn't even know that this was an official thing. So the existence of this was in my head without knowing what it was. Scary shit... Thank you for telling me this.

I'm not super stressed about finding out my sexuality anyways. I seriously have bigger fish to fry for the time being.

Have you tried possible affirmations, like a preferred name, pronouns, clothes? How did you feel?

I've tried a lot of things, actually. I mostly go by my chosen name (which feels kinda good), my chosen pronouns (which doesn't feel bad but it's kinda weird) and wearing affirming clothes feels fucking awesome.

a trans woman who is scared to do something or learn something that invalidates her.

I hate to say this but this is uncomfortably accurate...

Thank you tho c:

[-] ThatFembyWho 3 points 9 months ago

Hey I've been there. Not so long ago, I would be on reddit asking variations of "am I really trans?"

And everyone would be like "LOLyes", and I would be like "hmmmok if you say sooo"

I would never, ever, ever go back to testosterone. Estrogen is making my body complete. Even if the rest of my life is a dumpster fire sometimes, I can still love my body <3

My bigger fish to fry? Loneliness and social anxiety. I got the sex and gender bit outta the way. Onto the next challenge.

[-] pixeltree 3 points 9 months ago

Hell yeah sister, mission socializing is a go!

[-] alyqz@lemmy.sdf.org 2 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

I relate to this quite a bit. The best I can figure is that I am a sapphic aligned ace transfem. It has been quite the journey figuring that much out and I am still uncertain about where I will end up in the end, though I do know transitioning was literally life saving for me.

I think reading into the split attraction model might help. Aesthetic, romantic, sensual, sexual, and plutonic attraction are different and don't have to line up. AVEN (asexuality.org) is one place you can find info on this.

Finding a good therapist can do quite a bit of good. This can be incredibly difficult at times since a good therapist is one you feel comfortable and safe working with, and that can be different for everyone. Some things to look for are ones that practice trauma informed care (Trauma informed care is a different approach to therapy that can make a big difference... And also means they are more likely to have modern/less toxic views on the topic) and ones who specialize in LGBT issues (It can be unhelpful to have to educate your therapist)...preferably both. If you are in the States, Psychology Today has a therapist search that can be very helpful. Not everyone finds a good match the first time, do don't give up if the first one is a poor fit.

[-] SquishedFly 3 points 9 months ago

I'm glad I'm not alone in this. Thank you for the link, I'll give it a read once I've got a little more time.

I have been through quite the number of therapists too, so I know that there's everything from amazing therapists to wondering how they even got to be one. I'm actually quite happy with the one I'm currently with but I'll have to find a new one very soon for different reasons.

this post was submitted on 29 Feb 2024
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