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Hasbro being the worst, yet again
BG3's only sin is having to be tied to the worst owner in tabletop gaming. Thank god Larian is independent.
Larian pls make a new series based on the Pathfinder ruleset. I think the success of BG3 has helped the mainstream to get used to DnD ruleset. Although Pathfinder is more complex, I think they have the chops to make it more accessible to the masses.
I thought the whole idea of Pathfinder was to simplify D&D. It's more complex?
Pathfinder was to get around WotC dropping D&D 3.5. Paizo was started by veteran D&D writers to sell adventures, which they still do as adventure paths, rather than a system. When WotC updated to 4e, meaning no more print books that Paizo could reference in their adventures, Pathfinder was a way to print new 3.5e PHBs and Monster Manuals.
Paizo didn’t initially change much in PF1e. There were a few balance tweaks. The books were better laid out than 3.5. The players did the math on things like combat maneuvers in advance. In practice the game played pretty much the same, my groups jumped over seamlessly.
Having run and played both, I do think Pathfinder 2e is counterintuitively simpler in play than 5e D&D. 5e plays fluidly almost immediately, move and act. PF2e is pretty demanding for the first hour or three, the three action economy and Conditions (tm) are an armful, and many players need to unlearn some D&D habits. Once a player has below average system mastery PF2e is as fluid as 5e. Beyond that PF2e shines. The rules scale better to complex scenarios, giving players more clear options of how they could act and giving the GM a better framework to figure out exactly what someone needs to roll. I also think it’s easier for players to go from average to good system mastery in Pathfinder, it’s mostly just learning how to optimize their character and learning more conditions and spells that work in the framework the player already understands.
For new players in session 1 D&D is simpler, in session 5 Pathfinder pulls even or maybe ahead, and in session 50 Pathfinder still sort of works where D&D falls apart.
PF2e character customization, though, is much more complicated, which some people like and others do not.
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Eh, yes and no.
Pathfinder 1e was pretty much just straight-up continuing D&D 3.5e, but with some tweaks. Pathfinder 2e overhauled a lot of stuff, often simplifying things, but still pretty complex.
Compared to D&D 5e, Pathfinder has more rules, but those rules often make things easier, or (IMO) get you more return for the effort. So, for example: The feat list is bigger and more complicated, but in practice, it means you only need to look at a handful of them when you level up, which is easier (and the rules give you guidelines for swapping things out if you don't like them). The monk has more decisions to make with stances and attack types, but that's... kind of what you want with a monk to make combat interesting. There are rules for boats, and holy shit how does 5e not have rules for boats.
The last example might sound silly, but it's part of what convinced me to switch. It's an annoying omission in and of itself, but also speaks to a broader pattern of 5e just not supporting Dungeon Masters, letting them fix the either broken or incomplete rules, or else take the blame for them. Pathfinder actually supports ~~Dungeon~~ Game Masters, as though their time, effort, and fun were just as valuable as anyone else's. /rant
Pathfinder 2e is what I'd play if I wanted something like 5e, but runs differently. If I wanted something similar, I'd pick something else, but that's a longer, even more off topic discussion to go into unprompted. :P
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Pathfinder was created as an updated version of D&D 3.5, which was very complex. PF food streamline parts of it, but ended up just as complex at some point, mostly due to the massive variety of options available through splat books.
Meanwhile, D&D 5e was released to be much less complex by getting rid of stacking bonuses and the vast majority of math.
Parhfinder 2 (which I have not actually played yet) did not do that. They opted for streamlining the existing system by combining several similar subsystems into one (i.e. everything is a feat now). But the math is still there.
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I've been browsing older Forgotten Realms sourcebooks and the love that the authors put into those is amazing. It hurts to see D&D and the worlds I grew up loving destroyed by a soulless entity that cares only about profit.
If it's at all of interest to you, there are a bunch of good novels set in the Forgotten Realms, too.
There's a pretty great thread from just a few years ago on the Candlekeep forums where someone read through every single book and gave a brief review of them. I can't remember their opinion in great detail, but the biggest authors (Ed Greenwood and Bob Salvatore) were relatively lowly rated, while Elaine Cunningham and Erin M. Evans consistently rated much more highly.
I've never read Cunningham myself, but I've read all of Evans' FR novels and am a huge fan. Plan to read her non-FR novels once I'm finished with what I'm currently working through, if I can find a copy that's not from the rainforest company.
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Hasbro continuing to make shit decisions on behalf of WotC, the only sector of the company keeping it afloat.
You see, if they fire everyone from the division, it'll make even more profit. ez
Ah, the Jack Welch method.
(Seriously, fuck that guy. He was a pioneer among bloodsucking CEOS, and part of it was mass layoffs to boost short-term profits.)
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laying off 1,100 employees as a way to "modernize our organization and get even leaner
Yeah because that's what we want of the ones in charge of publishing, administering and providing support for some of the most played games in the world now and historically: leanness! The fewer people to take care of important things, the better! 🤦
I know that he's talking to investors rather than players, but come on! Also, there's nothing "modern" about stupidly trying to increase profits via mass layoffs without expecting blowback and for quality to suffer. That's some 1700s bullshit right there.
Also, when your company is ailing (read: Not making more profit than last year, no matter what ocean of money your managers are swimming in), fire the good parts. That'll fix it!
Hasbro is unprofitable, but there was a memo a while back that said Wizards of the Coast was their most profitable division. Possibly their only profitable division. That covers Magic: The Gathering and D&D.
This is also why we're seeing both those properties getting the fuck monetized out of them. Big influxes of MTG sets based on other licensed properties, and attempts to undo the open licensing around One D&D.
But then it makes even less sense to lay people off from those divisions.
Edit: minor clarity and typo corrections.
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The same Hasbro that tried to make a land grab for all D&D derivative content by changing their Open Game License to grant them irrevocable, perpetual rights to it. This is not a nice company as they demonstrate time and again.
So maybe it's time the RPG community stopped thinking Hasbro are ever going to change, mourn for what D&D has become, but move onto something else.
Shout-out to Pathfinder, paizo, and their new license!
The OGL License happened after Larian teamed up with Hasbro to make Baldur's Gate 3. Thankfully Larian is still independent so it can continue on to make better RPGs without Hasbro.
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Guess Larian just got a load of designers and writers. Such a shame as 5th ed was a real highlight, but now a lot of people seem to be heading back to pathfinder like the 4th ed days. Luckily, the Divinity universe can stand on its own and there's a wealth of other tabletop rulesets waiting for their amazing adaptions
I don't think it's too controversial to suggest that 5e mechanics are not the strength of BG3. It would be arguably praised more if it kept the world design of BG3 and replaced the combat to have the spell scope of DO2 with the basic actions of 5e (aka shove, which arguably BG3 tweaked anyway to make it fun in combat)
I'll miss the design approach of the game but BG3 was just a big advertisement to how good a D:OS3 will be
Revisiting DOS2 after playing BG3, the game feels like Splatoon: Painted surfaces everywhere, all the time.
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I made the change almost a year ago now after all the OGL nonsense they tried to pull and I honestly believe Pathfinder is a much more fun game. My entire table enjoys it more than 5e and they are a real variety of different player types.
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For the likely large overlap this audience might have with dnd, it didn't make 100mil a year so it gets to eat shit. It doesn't help that the video game license isn't counted in that total. Other Hasbro brands do make 100mil a year.
I thought magic was one. It is surprising to see layoffs there.
Anyway, of course a corporation does evil shit. The only moral is the line going up.
MtG made over a billion dollars. From what I can see WotC, products/services/licenses, make up over 3 billion of Hasbro's 5.something billion revenue.
Yeah, card crack is real. They've been whaling and getting kids into gambling since the 90s. Don't know why lay offs there. Line go up just a little more probably.
It's not that. It's that the fewer people they have to pay the more money they get to keep. It's incredibly short sighted and self destructive. But they don't care at this point.
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Somebody needs to make a company shit list so I can avoid them. I got EA, Hasbro, Nestle so far.
spoiler alert though, it's literally everybody. because everyone else is doing it, it's not possible to survive as a business in a competitive space without doing, for lack of a better word, the devil's work. It will take a major social disruption to change this, but it won't happen in an organized fashion because we as a species are pathetic. The disruption will be the end of the world - North America cracking down the middle due to all the fracking, the Greenland glacier sliding into the ocean all at a go, something like that. FAFO endgame shit, due any minute now anyway.
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Honestly its kind of extremely crumby that hasbro owns the wizards
The DnD games from the 90s on steam went up in price because of the success of BG3 they are now on sale forbtheir old price lol
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But what about the poor CEOs? Did they get their Christmas bonus? Think of the children!!
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“I felt your breath upon my neck; investors’ wants as cold as death.”
I can only ask how much cocaine remained on the table when they finally decided to do this. Not much, I’d wager.
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Haven’t played BG3 but wtf sense does it make to layoff these team(s)?
Plenty of people paid for the game and enjoyed it and it won GOTY.
You misunderstand. Larian is the company that made the BG3 video game, and they haven't laid people off.
However it's a licensed game. Baldur's Gate and D&D are IPs that are owned by a company called Wizards of Coast. And Wizards is owned by Hasbro. Hasbro is forcing layoffs at Wizards, specifically on the D&D team because it doesn't print money as efficiently as say, Magic the Gathering does.
The people at Wizards, i.e the people who actually make D&D are no doubt passionate wonderful people. But Hasbro (and probably some of the Wizards management) are awful corporate parasites determined to suck every last penny from their properties.
They don't give a shit how loved a product is, if it's not making $100M per year then it's basically worthless to them and they won't fund it. So layoffs happen.
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That's two separate products and companies you're thinking about...
Please do not tell me that anyone is surprised that a triple A game studio laid off most of their employees as a reward for a job well done.
Please. Please tell me everyone has figured out that nearly all large game dev companies are pure fucking evil.
EDIT: Welp, thats what I get for making an ill informed post after 36 hours on the road before passing out in my motel, yep, I probably should have read the article.
It’s the D&D team at Wizards of the Coast, not at Larian.
About a week ago you decided to make your lemmy account. A better idea would've been to learn how to fucking read.
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I'll take "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about" for $500, Alex
Maybe reread the article
You…You might want to consider reading the article.
Hasbro owns Wizards of the Coast, who own DnD. Larian, a completely separate company, got the rights to make BG3 from Hasbro. Hasbro laid off nearly everyone Larian Studios worked with at Wizards of the Coast.
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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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