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CNN’s Wolf Blitzer seemed at a lost of words at the justification being used to bomb a refugee camp in Gaza.

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[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 202 points 2 years ago

Everyone knows that if a terrorist takes a hostage, you murder the hostage and their entire family!

[-] Crikeste@lemm.ee 86 points 2 years ago

It’s the Israeli way!

Human shield? SHOOT THROUGH IT. WE KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE.

[-] slackassassin@sh.itjust.works 12 points 2 years ago

Human shield, checkmate atheist.

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[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 28 points 2 years ago

Its worth understanding that if there is no hope of rescuing or releasing the hostage, all you are doing is giving them time to regroup. This is why, particularly in the 70s and 80s, many countries (famously the US) took a "we don't negotiate with terrorists" stance. It was determined that the terrorist groups had no intention of ever releasing the hostages and your option was to attack immediately or wait, watch a few hostages get executed, and attack a fortified position.

But, under those circumstances, you have troops on the ground seeking out the hostages. And the IDF have no signs of having done this so...

[-] SkyezOpen@lemmy.world 61 points 2 years ago

They're literally saying "you still not be forgotten" while bombing the shit out of Gaza even though most are still alive and some have been released. They're nothing more than a casus belli. Israel doesn't give a shit.

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[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 25 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Get the fuck out here with the "don't negotiate with terrorists" shit. Had Israel not negotiated with terrorists then they wouldn't have exchanged 1000 Hamas fighters, including the current head of Hamas in Gaza, sitting 4x life-long, for a single IDF soldier.

That shit only works if it's doctrine and you don't ever the fuck blink. Which is the right way to go about things, but also not what Israel did, especially Likud governments: Instead they've been sappy and emotional about it, milking it for votes.


Also right now the families of hostages are the #1 critics of Netanyahu's government.

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[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 148 points 2 years ago

The "it's all so complicated" MFs have been quiet

[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 93 points 2 years ago

Oh, I've seen them saying a bunch of things. Combinations of "Well, it's not actually a refugee camp" and "the US also bombs civilians to take out military targets" and the long-used canard "they were warned to go south".

[-] Hyperreality@kbin.social 81 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

"the US also bombs civilians to take out military targets"

Not wrong though.

IRC the initial shock and awe coordinated 'surgical' bombing at the beginning of the 2003 Iraq war cost the lives of up to 8000 Iraqi civilians. I remember watching it at the time, and American media were really gushing about that whole thing. Going on about how precise it all was. Apparently if you dress it all up in a bit of newspeak (collateral damage, precision bombing, surgical strike, ...) you can convince most people that the pressure wave from a large bomb stops at the window of a building.

Maybe international law is too lax. Maybe the US is too powerful to face consequences for anything but the most egregious examples, but then again it's not as if the world (including the middle-east) gives much of a shit when Assad barrel bombs yet another a hospital. And no one gives a shit about the thousands who died in Sudan this year, because they're black, so they apparently don't count.

In a deeply cynical way, it makes sense that the IDF and Israel think it's unfair. Why should they get so much flack for war crimes, when others get away with it consequence free? China got to demolish ten thousand or more mosques, Russia got to demolish multiple cities and deliberately murder sheltering children, it's only fair that Israel gets to commit a bit of genocide.

I'm old and tired, and please understand this is an angry and sarcastic comment, but I do wonder what people think war is actually like. Especially urban warfare. Because given history, it seems to me that this is what it's always like. Thousands of dead civilians, razed buildings, and flimsy excuses and technicalities which allow countries to get away with (not so) accidentally murdering thousands. The world's biggest and least funny joke.

[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 33 points 2 years ago

Though my point in bringing it up is that it's not even an actual excuse when Israel defenders use it. We Americans actively protested such things as well, as war crimes and violations of international law.

Trying to blatantly use illegal US actions as an excuse for one's own illegal actions, such as Netanyahu in his speech trying to use the US response to 9/11 as a reason for Israel to do the same, is appalling at best.

[-] mamotromico@lemmy.ml 20 points 2 years ago

Maybe international law is too lax. Maybe the US is too powerful to face consequences for anything but the most egregious examples

I mean, the US has a legal device to allow them to declare war and invade Hague if the ICC ever tries anything to them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act

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[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 22 points 2 years ago

Thanks, it's like being flogged with warm lettuce

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[-] photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.com 95 points 2 years ago

Fucking hell. IDF is doing an indefensible acts speedrun, I guess.

[-] YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 31 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Hamas was the target, they surrounded their leaders with innocent people. It's a common tactic with terrorists.

[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 143 points 2 years ago

And? If there's a hostage situation, the answer is not to blow up the entire building, hostages and all.

[-] GoodEye8@lemm.ee 31 points 2 years ago

Even Russians don't blow the entire building, they just gas it.

[-] AttackPanda@programming.dev 22 points 2 years ago

Nah. We watched the Russians blow up the buildings in realtime without even worrying if military personnel were housed there. IIRC that was the theater bombing one that I am thinking of.

[-] Instigate@aussie.zone 20 points 2 years ago

Yeah, Israel are straight-up taking plays from the Soviet handbook here. Indiscriminate murder of civilians is okay if you get one bad dude. They’ve already dehumanised Palestinians beyond belief, it’s no wonder that they view murder of innocent Palestinians as being completely different to murder of innocent Israelis.

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[-] floofloof@lemmy.ca 21 points 2 years ago

They blew up that whole theater in Mariupol full of sheltering women and children, early on in the war. That must have killed hundreds.

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[-] YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago

I agree, but militaries will absolutely strike any high value target no matter the civilian cost. That's the human cost of war and why we have rules of war. Hamas doesn't follow those rules and the IDF has labeled them illegal combatants. Thus, in a legal sense, these strikes are being carried out. It absolutely is sickening but this is what Hamas wants to happen.

[-] livus@kbin.social 35 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

It's not really relevant what Hamas wants to happen. The civilians don't want to be murdered.

These are war crimes no matter what either of the beligerants think/want.

Most international law experts are already coming down on the side of civilian starvation being war crimes. History is going to judge this a lot more harshly than the talking heads of US/Israeli news.

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[-] Zerlyna@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago

Is bombing a hospital ok in the rules of war? Because they bombed the only cancer hospital in Gaza yesterday.

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[-] TinyPizza@kbin.social 53 points 2 years ago

“But even if that Hamas commander was there amidst all those Palestinian refugees who are in that Jabalya refugee camp, Israel still went ahead and dropped a bomb there attempting to kill this Hamas commander knowing that a lot of innocent civilians—men, women, and children—presumably would be killed?” Blitzer asked. “Is that what I’m hearing?”

Dude, Wolf Blitzer gets it. Don't let yourself seem like the less reasonable party when Wolf Blitzer's involved.

[-] YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 19 points 2 years ago

I don't think the Israeli government cares anymore than the Iranian government cared about killing its people. Any government based on religion is going to be intolerant of nonconforming behaviors and other religious beliefs. Separation of church and state is a requirement for successful societies.

[-] NewDark@lemmings.world 13 points 2 years ago

This is not a religious conflict. It's imperialist and settler colonial. This headass take needs to stop.

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[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 19 points 2 years ago

I feel like we're already at the bottom of the barrel when serial teleprompter reader Wolf Blitzer gets it.

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[-] nexguy@lemmy.world 68 points 2 years ago

I don't get the headline. The topic is far too important for a click bait title. He was not stunned... just asking the tough question.

[-] whenigrowup356@lemmy.world 25 points 2 years ago

He actually says in the clip, "I'm having a hard time hearing you" after the long pause, so it's also kind of inaccurate. The response was still horrifying but reporting the information correctly would still be cool.

[-] Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 51 points 2 years ago
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[-] UltraMagnus0001@lemmy.world 28 points 2 years ago

Dam! who are the Nazi now? They literally have people locked up behind walls and are denying the food and other resources. They cant even fish for food unless allowed.

[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 38 points 2 years ago

Nazis are defined by their focus on white supremacy with an emphasis on "aryan" whites. Jews and Arabs were very much a target of their regime.

Not all fascists are Nazis. The Israeli government has become increasingly fascist over the past decades and the IDF has a long history of war crimes and crimes against humanity with an emphasis on ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.

Please don't trivialize "Nazi" when they are still a very active threat in many different nations.

[-] NewDark@lemmings.world 28 points 2 years ago

They're literally doing final solution shit in front of our eyes. Comparing them to the Nazis (a fascist ethnic supremecist nation on their genocide arc) absolutely stands.

[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

That is an INCREDIBLY euro-centric viewpoint. Western Europe, at that.

Genocide and ethnic cleansing did not start or stop with Nazi Germany. Hell, by a lot of estimates, Imperial Japan killed more civilians during THEIR ethnic cleansing attempts.

And that ignores all the genocidal "Eastern European" wars of the 20th century, Russia's actions, China's ongoing horror, the hell that is Africa, and all the other wars. And that is just the 20th/21st century.

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[-] NoneSoVile@lemmy.world 26 points 2 years ago

It's crazy that you can go on Reddit and see people claiming it wasn't a refugee camp meanwhile the IDF has confirmed it was a refugee camp.

They've fallen for the Israeli propaganda machine so hard that they are more extreme in their defense of the IDF than the fucking IDF.

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[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 18 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The Times of Israel's take on this:

The Israel Defense Forces says it has killed the commander of Hamas’s Central Jabaliya Battalion, Ibrahim Biari, in an airstrike in the Gaza Strip a short while ago.
The military said the strike killed Biari and several other terrorists and caused underground terror tunnels to collapse, bringing down several nearby buildings.
Palestinian reports said at least 50 people were killed in the strike and subsequent collapse.
According to the IDF, Biari was one of the Hamas commanders responsible for directing members of the terror group’s elite Nukhba forces to invade Israel on October 7.
The IDF says the airstrike in Jabaliya was part of “a wide-scale strike” on Hamas operatives and infrastructure belonging to the terror group’s Central Jabaliya Battalion.
According to the IDF, the Central Jabaliya Battalion took control of several civilian buildings in the area.
“The strike damaged Hamas’s command and control in the area, as well as its ability to direct military activity against IDF soldiers operating throughout the Gaza Strip,” the army says in a statement.
It says “numerous” terrorists were killed with Biari, and “underground terror infrastructure embedded beneath the buildings, used by the terrorists, also collapsed after the strike.”
The IDF says it also “reiterates its call to the residents of the area to move south for their safety.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-jabaliya-strike-killed-top-hamas-commander-collapsed-terror-tunnels/

[-] Silverseren@kbin.social 40 points 2 years ago

So, they have no actual evidence they killed the guy.

And the move south rhetoric is clearly irrelevant, since if there are any Hamas people in the south, they'll bomb the civilians there anyways. So why does the location matter?

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 13 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

True, it appears they will indeed hit Hamas targets no matter where they are:

"Wherever a Hamas target arises, the IDF will strike at it in order to thwart the terrorist capabilities of the group, while taking feasible precautions to mitigate the harm to uninvolved civilians," the military said on Wednesday, reiterating previous statements.
The military has said the homes where militants live are "legitimate targets" even if civilians live alongside them.

However, it seems like going south is probably still in civilians' interests, IDF says there are more targets in the north and once ground forces go in they are going to consider anyone remaining north of the Gaza river to be a potential enemy combatant:

The military said the order was aimed at moving civilians away from "Hamas terror targets", which it believes are concentrated in the north. ...
Military spokesman Jonathan Conricus subsequently said: "We are preparing the area for significant military activity in Gaza City. That is the next stage. That's why we are asking civilians to go south of the Gaza River." ...
Israel renewed its warnings on Oct. 22, saying that anyone staying in the north could be identified as sympathisers of a "terrorist organisation" if they did not leave.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/why-is-israel-attacking-south-gaza-after-telling-people-go-there-2023-10-25/

[-] Marsupial@quokk.au 23 points 2 years ago

“Go south or we’ll bomb you”

“Oops we bombed you anyway rofl”

Israel has already bombed the evacuation corridor this invasion, as soon as they’re done in the north they’ll go south and murder more innocent children.

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[-] mwguy@infosec.pub 13 points 2 years ago

So the argument here is that Hamas' military commander, the commander of the raid that started this current conflict, set up his command and control network inside of a refugee camp. And Israel bombed it.

If the command and control center for the on the ground active military commander isn't a valid military targets, what is?

[-] 3migo@lemmy.world 14 points 2 years ago

It's a refugee camp filled with innocent people. No amount of justification or propaganda changes the fact that this was a refugee camp and a high degree of civilian casualties was guaranteed. This is a war crime.

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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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