59

No one is free from criticism. Harmful ideas should be condemned, when they are demonstrably harmful. But theist beliefs are such a vast range and diversity of ideas, some harmful, some useful, some healing, some vivifying, and still others having served as potent drivers of movements for justice; that to lump all theist religious belief into one category and attack the whole of it, only demonstrates your ignorance of theology, and is in fact bigotry.

By saying that religious and superstitious beliefs should be disrespected, or otherwise belittling, or stigmatizing religion and supernatural beliefs as a whole, you have already established the first level on the "Pyramid of Hate", as well as the first of the "10 Stages of Genocide."

If your religion is atheism, that's perfectly valid. If someone is doing something harmful with a religious belief as justification, that specific belief should be challenged. But if you're crossing the line into bigotry, you're as bad as the very people you're condemning.

Antitheism is a form of supremacy in and of itself.

"In other words, it is quite clear from the writings of the “four horsemen” that “new atheism” has little to do with atheism or any serious intellectual examination of the belief in God and everything to do with hatred and power.

Indeed, “new atheism” is the ideological foregrounding of liberal imperialism whose fanatical secularism extends the racist logic of white supremacy. It purports to be areligious, but it is not. It is, in fact, the twin brother of the rabid Christian conservatism which currently feeds the Trump administration’s destructive policies at home and abroad – minus all the biblical references."

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2019/5/4/the-resurrection-of-new-atheism/

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2020/2/21/can-atheists-make-their-case-without-devolving-into-bigotry/

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] MrJameGumb@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago

It seems like you're saying no one is allowed to criticize religion as a whole, but only certain aspects of certain religions that you agree are "harmful".

The problem is that there are a growing number of people who find ALL religions to be harmful, and those people have a right to make their feelings known.

You are gaslighting people into believing that they are bigots for speaking out against bigoted religious practices. That sounds like you are the one with a problem

load more comments (18 replies)
[-] MuhammadJesusGaySex@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There is nothing inherently “good” about religion at all. Honestly, I believe it cheapens the human race. It says that humans aren’t strong enough on their own. They NEED the guidance and help of invisible beings to do the things they do.

I was a heroin addict for over a decade. I am now clean, and even off the methadone. I purposefully avoided things like NA because I got myself clean. God had no part in it. God doesn’t deserve the credit. I put in the work.

But the main problem with religion is that it is an override switch for critical thinking. Things that are obviously, and proven to be helpful and right. They can become muddy at best and downright wrong when viewed through the lens of religion. Think, abortion, and stem cell research. Good people get hurt when viewed through the lens of religion. Think LGBTQ, or people of a different religion.

In the end the small positives aren’t worth the negatives, and for those “good religious people” you still support machines that are into child marriage, child molestation, keeping women down, and hurting other humans just because your god said it’s cool.

[-] TwentySeven@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

This is the take I cannot stand. I don't care what anyone's beliefs are, but to say that religion is inherently bad, or that it is incompatible with critical thinking is offensive, and quite frankly, extremely narrow minded and stupid.

[-] charonn0@startrek.website 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Don't most religions condemn atheism as inherently bad, stupid, dishonest, etc?

[-] myslsl@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

This is not inherent to all religions. Some particular religions are intolerant of other beliefs. Some aren't. I'm not sure of "most", you'd actually have to start listing out religions and gathering evidence for that claim.

[-] charonn0@startrek.website 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It would be easier to list the religions that don't teach that disbelief is wrong. I can't think of any, though.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] MuhammadJesusGaySex@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

From the Christians who have been proven to molest children, and set back rights of women and LGBTQ people. To the Muslims that also do horrible things to children, and women, and LGBTQ people. To Hindus that kill Sikhs and Muslims. To Sikhs that kill Hindus. I could keep going but I think I’ve got a large enough sample size already.

Even if you’re church or whatever doesn’t do these things directly. It still helps to breed the identity that is that religion. It still helps to spread the hate associated with that religion. In a lot of cases it sends money to fund the people that are fighting.

As far as religion messing with people’s ability to think critically. If you think religion doesn’t mess with that. I can’t help you. It’s literally in the news all day everyday. Pretty much everything that has to do with hate towards the LGBTQ people in the US was initiated by fear mongering politicians, and given legitimacy by religion.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] OtisRamflow@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago

I went to some AA meetings at one point in my life. It's sickening to see people cheapen their success by thanking god, instead of their own willpower.

You made the decision, thank yourself, or the people around you.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (22 replies)
[-] Ibaudia@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Couple of thoughts:

  1. Atheism is not a religion. Religion is defined by doctrine and rituals, atheism has neither. It is the absence of religion. Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.

  2. Antitheism typically stands on the ground that religion has been used to justify atrocities. It posits that religion is poisonous due to its effect on people and its ability to control their behavior to do irrational or evil things. Antitheism is not misanthropic in nature, nor is it trying to persecute people for their religion (at least not inherently), it is just the belief that a purely secular would would be more harmonious.

  3. The idea that a minority group like antitheists have started the beginning stages of a "genocide" against religious people just because they find their beliefs to be harmful is absurd, even at face value. Even atheists hold no institutional power anywhere in the world and antitheistic, hardline anti-religion beliefs tend to be fringe, even among atheists.

tl;dr - Generally disagree about everything

[-] QuaffPotions@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

Antitheism has plenty of blood on its hands, just like every other religion. Counting human lives only:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antireligion

And going beyond human lives, only something like 1-3% of the human population is vegan. That means 97% of people are actively complicit in an egregious atrocity every day, and that is blood on the hands of people of all religions.

https://animalclock.org/

[-] Ibaudia@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

Again, antitheism does not have the defining characteristics of religion. And what you're pointing to is state violence, which again, is not an issue today since antitheists do not hold institutional power, are considered a fringe group, and would generally not accept a state-sponsored genocide of religious people. I feel like you are arguing against the ghost of Stalinism.

[-] amio@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Some argue that atheism requires faith when compared to agnosticism, which is fair, but it does not make it a religion per se.

I agree with most of your points, but I'm not sure I think it's fair.

While atheism/antitheism is obviously a belief, it is not "capital F Faith" in the usual religious sense. You have a "faith" in gravity and that it'll keep doing gravity things, which is based on measurable phenomena. The other kind, "just-have-faith/God works in mysterious ways" faith, is specifically based on the opposite, and is more akin to trust and hope. Trust and hope are great, but it does make the concepts fundamentally different. Equating the two is a very common occurrence that just so happens to either paint atheism/antitheism as a much more "random" belief, or paint theism as much more substantiated than it is, depending on perspective.

load more comments (1 replies)
[-] OtisRamflow@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago

Atheism is not a religion. It's the idea that there are no gods, and in most cases no religion follows.

Atheism is not getting involved. Your whole thing then is really just pro-theist vs. Antitheist. I would say that even the most diehard anti-theists aren't invading other countries, jailing people, or beheading them for their beliefs.

Teasing religious people for their dick head beliefs, is a response to all the shitty things that have been done and are currently being done in the name of religion.

If you NEED religion to be a good person then you're not a good person. Every single shitty thing happening on the planet right now is directly related to greed, or religion. Yet you still think it's "bigotry" to call that out.

Fuck religion, and fuck a god that would sit and watch all this happen and do nothing. If god is real he's a real piece of shit.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] charonn0@startrek.website 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Religious belief is a voluntary characteristic. Why should that not be considered when judging someone's character?

load more comments (31 replies)
[-] ttmrichter@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Atheism isn't a religion. Full stop. From that one statement you made the rest is safely dismissible.

load more comments (4 replies)
[-] ef9357@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 1 year ago

We’re ALL born atheist. Belief is voluntary.

load more comments (5 replies)
[-] TwentySeven@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

Fuck all you and your dumbass beliefs. I have no problem with atheism. But when you say that religion should be stamped out, or that I cannot think critically because I believe in God, you're a narrow minded fucking idiot.

[-] DarkGamer@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

I have no problem with Santa deniers but when you tell me that adults shouldn't believe in Santa Claus or that I don't think critically because I know he's always watching me from the North Pole and determining whether I've been good or bad, you're a narrow minded fucking idiot.

load more comments (2 replies)
[-] Miclux@lemmings.world 5 points 1 year ago

I would rather believe in a fairy tale book about a unicorn farting rainbows than the bible, quarn and other bs.

load more comments (3 replies)
[-] blazera@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

religion is just the opposite of science. Science is evidence based beliefs, religion is faith, or rather belief with lack of evidence.

It's just in an awkward phase right now where science has proven itself as correct and religious people warp their beliefs to try and fit it. Liiiike, folks shaving their beards. Science says it's fine, people have shaved plenty of times, with no ill effects. Religion says it's bad, it will anger God. People still call themselves religious while shaving their beards, despite the singular source of their religious belief explicitly saying otherwise. Bible praises the efficacy of prayer to quite an extent, turns out that's a testable hypothesis. How many religious people do you know that would bet money on prayer affecting the outcome of a study? People in developed countries stopped believing we should be stoning homosexuals to death, but the books never changed, all those words are still there, they're just ignored now. Oh but it's still the infallible word of God.

[-] QuaffPotions@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago
[-] Bizarroland@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

And religion is not the opposite of science.

Science is the formalized study of nature.

The supernatural is the opposite of science.

Gods are by choice or by default supernatural in nature.

Religion itself is the organized practice by which worshipers converge to worship a god or to study and practice the supernatural.

We know religion exists whereas whether or not a God exists of any type whatsoever is up for debate and not scientifically provable.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[-] Rottcodd@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

Like many labels people choose to self-apply (including but by no means limited to religious ones), "atheist" has a bit of an image problem, since the people who are most eager to self-apply it, and to broadcast that self-application far and wide, tend to be insecure, over-compensating, self-absorbed, obnoxious assholes.

There are a great many generally kind, decent people who identify as "atheists." You just don't generally know that they do, since, being generally kind and decent people, they aren't crashing around like football hooligans, alternately screeching about their own team and atacking the opposing team.

And that's the case with pretty much all labels. The problem is almost never with people who self-apply a particular label, but simply with noxious assholes, regardless of the label. It's generally just our own biases that make it so that we consider the noxious assholes who wear one label to define all who do and the noxious assholes who wear another to be unfortunate exceptions to the rule.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
59 points (100.0% liked)

Unpopular Opinion

6294 readers
67 users here now

Welcome to the Unpopular Opinion community!


How voting works:

Vote the opposite of the norm.


If you agree that the opinion is unpopular give it an arrow up. If it's something that's widely accepted, give it an arrow down.



Guidelines:

Tag your post, if possible (not required)


  • If your post is a "General" unpopular opinion, start the subject with [GENERAL].
  • If it is a Lemmy-specific unpopular opinion, start it with [LEMMY].


Rules:

1. NO POLITICS


Politics is everywhere. Let's make this about [general] and [lemmy] - specific topics, and keep politics out of it.


2. Be civil.


Disagreements happen, but that doesn’t provide the right to personally attack others. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Please also refrain from gatekeeping others' opinions.


3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.


Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.


4. Shitposts and memes are allowed but...


Only until they prove to be a problem. They can and will be removed at moderator discretion.


5. No trolling.


This shouldn't need an explanation. If your post or comment is made just to get a rise with no real value, it will be removed. You do this too often, you will get a vacation to touch grass, away from this community for 1 or more days. Repeat offenses will result in a perma-ban.



Instance-wide rules always apply. https://legal.lemmy.world/tos/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS