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submitted 1 year ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/news@lemmy.world

Tensions spill across universities like Columbia and Harvard as students on each side accuse the other of a kind of bloodlust

To one side, Columbia students stood silently, wrapped in the blue and white of Israel as they gripped pictures of the murdered and abducted. Across the grass and brick divide, a slightly larger cohort of students chanted “Free, free Palestine.”

The faultline between the two ran along the claim by each that the other was pursuing a kind of bloodlust – a charge that has divided university campuses across America in the wake of the bloody Hamas attack on Israeli communities and Israel’s ongoing military assault on Gaza.

Reactions within US universities to the killing of at least 1,300 Israelis and the abduction of about 100 more have swung from celebration of the Hamas assault as a legitimate act of resistance to occupation to condemnation along with a demand that it not be used to ignore the deaths of Palestinians killed in Israel’s retaliation on Gaza.

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[-] Neato@kbin.social 110 points 1 year ago

Leading financial figures on Wall Street made a show of saying they would not employ Harvard students who signed the statement blaming Israel for the Hamas attack. A billboard truck drove around Harvard campus displaying the pictures and names of the students, and their addresses and other details were published on websites.

That's some intense and coordinated propaganda.

[-] qdJzXuisAndVQb2@lemm.ee 74 points 1 year ago

The doxxing truck is so incredibly fucked up.

[-] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 32 points 1 year ago

I think they believed people would jump on with the hate, rather than seeing how messed up it is.

Israel is paying for the success of Iron Dome - rocket attacks never really stopped, but the international perspective shows only Palestinians displaced and abused, while a few rockets get shot down over Israel. If Israel wades into Gaza and occupies it, the attack got what it wants, a new South Africa, with millions of un-enfranchised citizens. This outcome was warned about in the early 2000’s.

[-] PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee 35 points 1 year ago

The doxxing truck should get someone slapped with attempted murder charges.

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[-] billiam0202@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

On the one hand, it's a favorite conspiracy among the right-wing to scream about the "internationalist cabal of Jewish globalist bankers who control the world!"

But then you read something like that, and it does seem suspicious. Like why would "leading financial figures" care who Harvard students support? And who would think putting their personal info on a fucking truck is acceptable?

Note: I am absolutely not saying or espousing any theory that the Jews control the world or anything. But I think that in a vacuum, absent any outside context, it seems weirdly coincidental for Wall Street to care if a bunch of college students blame Israel or for their information to be publicly broadcast.

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[-] AllonzeeLV@lemmy.world 54 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The boomers spent a lifetime equating blind, unconditional support of israel to benevolence, in the same way they blindly equate being anti abortion to being pro life despite supporting little to no assistance for unwanted children and unwilling mothers. Its FREE and it sounds pretty at face value so they made it their position.

I can read and see the white hot hatred of boomers in power over the fact that younger generations don't value an Israeli life over a Palestinian life or vice versa. It literally seems to dumbfound them that we didn't come to their same shallow from the inception conclusion. Sorry, fuck your team sports, and fuck all the imaginary friends you use to rationalize killing real human beings that exist here in reality. I would never pick a religion or a skin tone to determine who is more worthy to love.

And the fact is, neither the Israeli government or Hamas that controls the Palestinian government take care to spare civilian life. That isn't a Hamas thing, that is a this conflict thing.

And the Israeli government is the force with more responsibility to temper their response for 2 reasons: They're a much larger military. Something something power, something something responsibility, peter parker. Israel always gets a global pass retaliating against Palestinian civilians when Hamas attacks Israeli soldiers, which doesn't exactly scream "keep our civilians out of this." And 2: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

You can't run the world's largest open air prison, largely filled with people guilty of no crime, and get credibly angry when the prisoners robbed of hope turn to desparation and vengeance.

There are no heroes in this conflict, and with the blood dripping off both parties, Im inclined to be more supportive of the force less capable of defending themselves and their side's civilians.

https://m.thewire.in/article/world/chart-6407-palestinians-and-308-israelis-killed-in-violence-in-last-15-years

This is the first year in a long time that could be considered a conflict, rather than a globally sanctioned, continuous slaughter.

[-] harmsy@lemmy.world 45 points 1 year ago

I support the civilians. Both governments can go slather themselves in honey and take a hike in bear country.

[-] callouscomic@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

The Enlightened Centrist who absolutely MUST make sure others know that they are. For smugness.

[-] MetaCubed@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

I strongly believe that in this case, being on the side of the civilians in all cases is not enlightened centrism...it's just the correct side... Do you think the civilians of one side deserve retribution?

Siding with the Israeli government is to support Netanyahu and his fascistic genocide of the Palestinian people

Siding with Hamas (Hamas =/= Palestine) is to support violent extremists.

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[-] S_204@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

There's an old proverb that goes 'Better to be an enlightened centrist than a miserable prick'.

Not sure what reminded me of that.

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[-] RagnarokOnline@reddthat.com 37 points 1 year ago

Can’t both sides be driven by bloodlust? It’s all horrific and a never-ending cycle of pain and rage.

[-] Neato@kbin.social 25 points 1 year ago

Both governments (Israel and Hamas) are driven by an urge to seek more power by claiming land and killing their "enemies". The populace are witting and unwitting pawns of that. I am not surprised people back the Israeli government with the amount of propaganda being put forth and I'm not surprised that people who have been murdered and had their homes destroyed for decades are willing to tacitly support the only group that seems like it can fight back. Desperate people don't make rational decisions.

[-] orclev@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

Yes, there are no good guys in this conflict. Israel has spent decades commiting low level offences against Palestine and her people, and Hamas has spent the same amount of time launching small attacks against Israel. They both have legitimate grievances with each other, but it's the civilians on both sides that suffer for it. Unfortunately there's no good solution to the problem, there's too much bad blood between them at this point that any hope for peace would be short lived. Even if Israel and Hamas agreed to stand down some other group on one side or the other would start things up again.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 27 points 1 year ago

Israel has spent decades commiting low level offences against Palestine and her people

"Low level"... Yeah no.

[-] orclev@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Low level as in murdering a dozen people there, evicting and bulldozing a bunch of houses over there, that sort of thing, as opposed to like, rolling tanks into the middle of Gaza and opening fire, dropping bombs on them, or like what they're planning on doing now where they've ordered them to evacuate in 24 hours before they presumably march in and most likely just start murdering people. Israel tends to keep up a constant low level attack. It's not one big thing, but thousands of small offenses happening nearly constantly. Hamas on the other hand tends to do less, but what they do is bigger. Bombs that kill or injure hundreds, launching indiscriminate rockets into Israel, that sort of thing.

For better or worse, Hamas attack is exactly what Netanyahu wanted. It's an excuse for Israel to escalate things even further. In many ways Hamas played right into his hands. To be clear, they were absolutely provoked into it, but there's still an inbalance of power at play. Now Netanyahu is going to use that attack to justify even more atrocities, and there's not much Palestine or Hamas can really do about it. It will get very ugly over there before too much longer and both Palestinians and Israelis are going to suffer, but I fear the Palestinians are going to suffer a lot more before this is over. There's a distinct possibility that this is going to result in Israel completely occupying Palestine and them effectively ceasing to exist as an independent state.

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[-] Stanwich@lemmy.world 36 points 1 year ago

Fucking great! That's what universities are for. Debate.

[-] danhakimi@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

It's gotten worse than debate in quite a few places. People protest memorial services saying that the murder of civilians was justified. This is some real WBC-level shit.

[-] Immersive_Matthew@sh.itjust.works 28 points 1 year ago

What a shame. These “smart” people should be leading by example and coming together in solidarity against violence on all sides. What a great image that would have been to see both groups protesting the war together. Fools.

[-] enthusiasticamoeba@lemmy.ml 22 points 1 year ago

You know that only Israel can stop the violence, right? If Palestine stops fighting, Israel continues the violence until they are eliminated. If Israel stops, then Palestine doesn't have to fight back. It's really very simple.

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[-] iforgotmyinstance@lemmy.world 27 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Even if you sympathize with the colonizers, how is the seige of Gaza an appropriate response? Murdering over a million innocents for what?

[-] TokenBoomer@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

It’s not and they know it. They’re just grasping at anything hoping to mollify the indignation they feel for Israel’s government. They’re digging in their heels, because the propaganda of, “Israel good,” is dissonant with the reality that their manufactured beliefs were wrong.

[-] DoomBot5@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

I see you're already counting people as dead before they're killed. If so, how do you feel about Hamas murdering 9.3 million Israelis? They haven't done it yet, but they want to. Israel of course doesn't want any civilian deaths, but Hamas builds terror tunnels under their homes, launches rockets from their schools and hospitals, and uses the civilians as expendable meat shields.

[-] yiliu@informis.land 9 points 1 year ago

A million? What on earth are you talking about?

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[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I don't give a fuck what their reasoning is, I don't root for people that take civilian hostages.

Or groups that #Trump supports.

[-] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 28 points 1 year ago

Do you root for people stealing stealing peoples land and killing people for decades?

No.

But that in no way justifies killing a thousand or so people, injuring several thousand more, and kidnapping and threatening to execute hundreds (including children) in an orgy of violence. Both sides are in the wrong here.

[-] vind@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

You can support the Palestinians and their right to end occupation and not support Hamas. You can be an advocate of Palestinians' rights and not endorse Hezbollah or Iran's regime. You can be pro-Palestinian without being anti-semitic. You can support Ukraine's sovereignty and decry Israel's human rights abuses. You can condemn terrorism and the killing of innocent civilians and still believe in one's right to resist.

These stances are not mutually exclusive.

End the genocide of Palestinians.

[-] skozzii@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I agree, this is the part I don't understand. Why do people want to force others to pick a side? They are both wrong and treat each other horribly. Cant we condemn both? Civilian death is completely unnecessary for both sides. Just lay down all the weapons and end apartheid.

The problem is you have two right wing governments that only know violence. The civilians are the victims.

[-] remus989@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

I'll tin foil hat for a second. It really feels like there's a coordinated effort to push this as a really divisive event where you either completely support Israel or you're a monster. Is that actually happening? Probably not, but it sure does feel that way.

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[-] NoIWontPickaName@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

Fuck yes they are both in the wrong, maybe criticize both instead of giving passive carte blanche to one.

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[-] Neato@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

“It’s about standing with the people of Gaza, and reminding the world that these are humans who deserve to live in dignity, to deserve to live free from occupation, free from colonial brutality, free from the violence that Israel constantly is constantly throwing at them,” she said.
“Since Saturday, a little over 1,500 people have already died in Gaza, and a third of them are children. And yet that level of violence against Palestinians is very rarely discussed. Entire families have been killed.”
Avila Chevalier said she did not regard the protest as celebrating killing but that the violence against Israelis did not happen in a vacuum.
“No one wants violence, right? What people who are engaging in these protests are trying to get across is that this violence didn’t start five days ago, this violence started with Israeli occupation of Palestine,” she said.

Desperate people being the victims of genocide and colonial atrocities for decades side with desperate people. More at 11.

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[-] Hyperreality@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wonder if it's possible to have a well informed, polite, nuanced, and empathetic debate on this, that recognizes the complexity of the situation, existing grievances, and existing hurt.

Given the level of comments you always read on contentious subjects like this one, it's almost impossible on the internet. People have gotten so used to being rude to each other, shouting at each other, not actually listening, the kind of behaviour that would get you punched in the face in real life.

Except now people are taking this style of 'debate' to the real world. People screaming at each other without listening. What's the point? Is it fun? Does it convince anyone? Does it actually solve anything?

Maybe it helps alienated people feel like they belong. Even if in the long term it actually means you end up becoming increasingly radicalised and ultimately even more alienated from your actual friends, family and neighbours.

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[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago

What flag do I wave for “both sides are terrible and neither deserves the religious sites, just nuke the entire area”? /s

You'll be called a asshole by the "Free Palestine" folks for not supporting them.

The "Support Israel" people never say shit to me.

[-] NOT_RICK@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

I’m surprised, both have pretty loud online cheerleaders

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[-] Noodle07@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

How the fuck did Jerusalem became the epicenter of all major monotheist religion in the first place? Delete the fucking city if nobody wants peace

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this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2023
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