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It astounds me that anyone thinks otherwise on Hamas. (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago by PugJesus@lemmy.world to c/noncredibledefense@sh.itjust.works

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[-] MossyFeathers@pawb.social 142 points 1 year ago

That's what I find insane. It's like people have lost the ability to say, "what Israel is/was doing was fucked, but also fuck Hamas for mass murder and rape". People get upset when you say, "I feel bad for the Israelis and Palestinians". You're either pro-hamas, anti-israel or pro-israel, anti-hamas. You're either pro-palestine and anti-israel, or anti-palestine and pro-israel.

You know you can be sympathetic to the civilians on both sides and hate the extremists right?

[-] Chariotwheel@kbin.social 45 points 1 year ago

Yeah, it's one of those polarizing issues, where people on both sides decide that any opinion is binary and you either are all in for Israel or all in for Palestina and you can't have any empathy or understanding for both sides.

These past days people yelled at me in the fediverse that I chill for Israel's illegal occuption and also that I chill for Hamas and blame their atrocities on Israel. It's insane. You can hardly have any other opinion than either Israel all bad or Palestine all bad.

It's disgusting how many people on both sides support slaughtering civilians of the other side while at the same time saying that the other side are monsters for slaughtering civilians.

[-] nottheengineer@feddit.de 21 points 1 year ago

Welcome to modern politics, where the range of opinions that a person accepts is so small that it doesn't overlap with the range that a person on the other side accepts.

If you have an opinion in the middle, everyone will just hate you and having a discussion is impossible.

[-] JebKush@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

I blame Western media's fairness bias. Decades of pushing the idea that every issue has exactly two sides, no more and no less, and those sides are exactly opposite each other and fully equal.

Israel, represented by their hardline zionist governments, on one side. Palestine, represented by the hardline islamists of Hamas, on the other. Nothing exists off that axis, nothing exists between those poles but Enlightened Centrist fence sitters. Fairness.

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[-] Zekas@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago

And when you take that stance, you get called an enlightened centrist. I lack the words to express my frustration. Why is life so cheap to these people? Do they even fathom what's being lost?

[-] GiveMemes@jlai.lu 14 points 1 year ago

No, they don't have any clue what's being lost because they haven't seen anything other than the flickering blue light of their computer monitor for the past 4 years.

The people least well adjusted (terminally online) are the ones online all the time upvoting and posting things and only generally interacting with others that are terminally online. This lack of interaction with other ideas leads to this radicalization and lack of care for others.

There's no use in trying to convince the guy that hasn't left mom's basement in 6 years. What's he gonna do? Get cheeto dust on me?

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[-] Aylex@lemmy.ml 30 points 1 year ago

Doesn't help that people conflate Hamas with Palestinian civilians.

[-] benignintervention@lemmy.world 13 points 1 year ago

This is why I mostly stay out of that conversation. I don't know enough about the history or politics or general demographics of the region to have an informed and nuanced perspective. I just know it's not good

[-] Blapoo@lemmy.ml 26 points 1 year ago

What!? But! My brain! 2 things!? No . . . One thing! Only pro or anti! Cannot compute!! slams fists on keyboard

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[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

Reality is a team sport, to some people.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 84 points 1 year ago

free palestine from hamas

awfully lot of people make the mistake of conflating palestinians with hamas, especially considering that the last elections were out there almost 20 years ago and weren't allowed since. west bank effectively treats gaza as under rebel government

(same goes for conflating israelis with israeli govt of course. they have mostly-functional elections, but bibi tries hard to undo it with his judiciary fuckery. this might be one reason for intelligence lapse - some army people resigned as a result of these moves and in parallel some seats were stuffed with bibi's people)

then you have this bit where likud needs hamas because this riles up israeli nationalists, which harass and contain gaza and send out settlers which radicalizes palestinian right wingers, which

this has been going on for considerable time and is deliberate strategy of likud https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

goes without saying that you can't really have peaceful palestine with hamas existing but i'd also say that you can't really have peaceful palestine with likud in power

[-] JebKush@sh.itjust.works 25 points 1 year ago

This is the right take. Likud and Hamas (and the other minor parties/terror groups aligned with those two) deserve each other. The civilians don't deserve to be caught between them. They're both fairly popular afaik, but I can't necessarily blame the people when either side unilaterally disarming would face atrocities.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

It's all so fucked. I can't even imagine what it's like to be one of the millions of civilians caught between two groups of shitty opportunists.

[-] PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

Apparently the infants are supposed to take up arms against hamas or they deserve it.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 1 year ago

how have you got to this conclusion

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[-] Delphia@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

After the Hamas attack the news showed video of Palestinians singing and dancing in the street. My buddy just took a sip of his coffee "What are they celebrating, their last day of having houses? For every action there is a reaction, and an Israeli reaction is quite a fucking thing"

I shouldnt have laughed but not only did I know he was right but he managed to make it a Snatch reference.

[-] Fisk400@feddit.nu 56 points 1 year ago

Trust noncredibledefense to have the proper takes.

[-] rustyfish@lemmy.world 41 points 1 year ago

Which is true and also sad. When the Ukraine Boogaloo started r/noncredibledefense was one of the best sources there. Which isn’t shining a good light on the rest of that site.

[-] skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de 14 points 1 year ago

nah this is expected. non-specialist won’t find IR/geopolitics/defense shitsposts funny, or even understand them in more obscure cases

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[-] LazerFX@sh.itjust.works 49 points 1 year ago

It's quite spectactular. I think the politcs on both sides are awful, and I really feel for the civillians who are just trying to live their lives under this bullshit. Both sides need to step up and take responsibility for their major, horrific fuckups and problems; and the west in general needs to take responsibility for kicking people out of their homes to make homes for others... but also both sides just need to stop fucking hurting each other for a minute in order to progress.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 38 points 1 year ago

So Israel needs to stop colonizing Palestine, as that is the primary cause of death and conflict.

Saying both sides just need to stop when one is constantly the aggressor and the other is responding to that aggression is zero tolerance logic. Blaming the victim is why things have escalated to the point we are at now.

[-] Atomic@sh.itjust.works 31 points 1 year ago

They're not colonizing Palestine. They're eradicating it.

And this has been going on for almost 80 years. Anything anyone does, is always, in response to some shitty thing someone did before. But fact of the matter is, Israel benefits more than Palistine to have a conflict. So much that the time when it actually looked like someone could talk both sides to a peaceful conclusion. Israel had him assassinated.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

Colonization is the method Isreal is using to eradicate Palestine.

[-] Atomic@sh.itjust.works 17 points 1 year ago

Look. I get that you heard that word somewhere. But everything isn't colonizing.

Annexing would be a better description to what they're doing.

[-] flipht@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Its literally colonizing though. It's sending their citizens to build settlements in areas that do not belong to them.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

Annexing does not imply the use of force, colonizing does.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Annexing implies bringing an area under the control of a government; colonization implies mass movement of people into undeveloped land. If it's occupied land (necessitating the eviction of the occupants), then it's ethnic cleansing. Any or all are correct depending on which specific part of Israeli policy one is discussing.

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[-] S_204@lemmy.world 23 points 1 year ago

The Day Israel became a country they were attacked. They've been on defense since day 1.

They're too heavy handed that's clear but they are not the aggressor or instigator in this fight. They've offered dozens of peace deals, brokered by a variety of 3rd parties, only to be rejected because Hamas wants Jews dead. It's in their founding Charter, just to be clear about who's intent is what over there in terms of aggression.

[-] snooggums@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago

Evicting Palestinians from Palestinian territory by force so that Isreali settlers can occupy their land is being defensive?

[-] S_204@lemmy.world 12 points 1 year ago

I don't understand how you could see that in any other context? They're obviously developing settlements to maintain a front in the region. You can see from this week's events that having settlements adjacent to the border prevent the incursion from penetrating deeper into the country where the larger population centers are.

20, or 30 years ago you were seeing bombings in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. I was in Jerusalem for a bus bombing and just missed it.... Those have died down and been replaced with border skirmishes.

Whether that's a reasonable or effective strategy is a different question.

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[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 year ago

When the response to that aggression is also genocide fantasies, sometimes a conflict has no good guys.

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[-] Aceticon@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

"both sides just need to stop fucking hurting each other"

Just apply that one to the other invasion we've been talking about of late, that of Russia in Ukraine, and see how well that "both sides" "argument" sounds to you.

If one puts on hold any feelings that lead to one favoring one side over the other (say, because one side is culturally quite close and familiar whilst the other is filled with people who will shout "god is great" whenever shit happens), it's pretty clear that you can't apply a "both sides" demand to a situation were one side is the invading one and has overwhelming force, whilst the other side is a far weaker resistance movement living in a tiny slice under siege of a much vaster occupied land.

Your point would make absolute sense if the Palestinians had all of their land (or at least to the Oslo Agreement borders) and still kept sending rockets to and attacking Israel, but that's not at all the situation that we have now.

[-] Honytawk@lemmy.zip 26 points 1 year ago

I'm sure we would be saying the exact same about the Ukraine war if Ukrainians were treating the Russians the same way Hamas was treating Israelians.

But they aren't, so it is a moot point.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

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[-] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 year ago

Two sides going 'I'm gonna wipe you off the map!' 'No I'm gonna wipe you off the map!' is not comparable to one side going 'get back on your side the line' while the other goes 'half your country is our side, actually all your country, also we're not here, also it's a special police double-secret operation, also nice kids you got there.'

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[-] Why9@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

I condemn and disagree with Hamas as well. The way they've attacked Israel does nothing but invite suffering for both nations involved, especially Palestinians.

But let's be honest. What's Palestine really getting in aid? Hamas, although extreme and definitely a terrorist group, are the only ones fighting back against Israel? I can't remember anyone putting sanctions on Israel and threatening military action if they continue to destroy settlements in Gaza. It's always just a slap on the wrist.

Sure, free Palestine from Hamas, but then what? Israel gets to continue doing what it has been doing for decades? How does that not just create Hamas 2.0?

The people losing their families don't need thoughts and prayers, and aid money to keep them on a life support machine. I'm genuinely looking for an answer here, because for Palestinians, it does seem like Hamas is their only option?

[-] MisterScruffy@lemmy.ml 15 points 1 year ago

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable

[-] sharkfucker420@lemmy.ml 9 points 1 year ago

Violent revolution is never chosen by the oppressed, it is imposed by the oppressor

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[-] germanatlas 30 points 1 year ago

Wtf this is way too credible

[-] Borkingheck@lemmy.world 24 points 1 year ago

I've never seen a single person advocating Palenstein ever offer their support for Hamas. Yet social media out pouring suggests otherwise.

It's been weird seeing moral grandstanding from right wingers supporting Israel, because of the war crimes committed by hamas yet when the same thing is reported happening to Ukranians by Russia, its suddenly all fake and we shouldn't get involved and other shinty excuses.

[-] FleetingTit@feddit.de 10 points 1 year ago

*Palestine

Palenstein sounds like a castle in Germany.

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[-] HolyDuckTurtle@kbin.social 19 points 1 year ago

It's been genuinely distressing to see people condoning such horrific behaviour. Thank you for the small dose of sanity.

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[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Over the last few days I've noticed that the Venn diagram "Russia's recent attacks on Ukraine are good, actually" and "Hamas' recent attacks on Israel are good, actually" posters is a circle.

Seriously, whenever you find the most extremist pro-atrocity stuff you can search their names and "ukraine" and find the worst Vatnik crap.

If you're rooting for either team in Israel vs Hamas, I'm giving you the stink-eye.

[-] NightLily@lemmy.basedcount.com 11 points 1 year ago

Same same.

[-] redcalcium@lemmy.institute 10 points 1 year ago

We must achieve peace, by force!

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this post was submitted on 11 Oct 2023

474 points (100.0% liked)

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