I developed a little sarcastic voice in my head that says “no whey” every time I find the smidge of dairy
I swear they just put milk powder in stuff for fun sometimes. There's no way it's actually that important to the flavor of a BBQ chip.
Maybe it's cheaper than sugar in some cases? Milk is sweet and had fat in it, which can enhance other flavors. It still seems so self-defeating, though. They're limiting their pool of potential buyers. Lactose intolerance is just as common as veganism.
It's hard to imagine how milk products could be cheaper when they require more energy inputs and more processing, along with limiting the consumer base as you said. I guess it's really subsidized so a lot of the actual cost is externalized?
I think like they're just doing what they've always done. Inertia.
It's cheaper because it's a by product of an incredibly popular main product. There is so much of it that isn't used it's hard to sell for much because it's abundant and otherwise they would have to pay to dispose of it. And it is a food grade by product that has chemical properties making it an engineering solution to food producers
That shouldn't be a surprise I would have thought
But is it cheaper than just using sugar and vegetable oil? I'm skeptical, especially since a lot of products that aren't even marketed as being dairy free don't bother with using dairy products. I'm not surprised, I just think it's one of those "if it works, don't fix it" kind of things that get stuck in the process.
Iirc yes it is much cheaper because otherwise it's a waste product
If there's a demand for a waste product they can still charge for it, simply because companies will pay. It's not like they give it away.
Yes.
but if the demand is because it's cheaper to use that product instead of alternatives, then the price can't raise too much until those alternatives raise in price
And if there is no other user for it then that's just where the price will stay
I feel like you're overlooking the fact that dairy is subsidized too, like I said before. It's not merely cheaper because it's a waste product of something that's "incredibly popular", it's propped up by the government. If the real price was paid the popularity of milk and its waste products would likely decrease.
There's many factors that contribute to the price of dairy product. Dairy is used for a wide wide variety of things. I don't think that subsidies are a relevant factor in the case of the waste products. If dairy wasn't subsidized, dairy wouldn't stop being used and those waste products would still be created and we are back to where we already are. If those waste products are still going to be produced, there may be less of it but still far more than needed and so there is still excess
I'm not overlooking subsidies, but I don't see that is relevant. Since the subsidies are not in anyway for the production of dairy by products.
As an example where I am they are subsidized to create a system that will never run out of dairy as a consequence of WW2 era rationing my country decided we will never have a dairy shortage again. It was and still is(or just had never been reassessed) deemed too important to have milk and all the things they can do with it and how powerful it is as a source of nutrition in tones if scarcity because it ticks a lot of boxes.
Also the alternatives are also subsidized so I don't see it being a useful point to consider.
So if you are calculating the cost of this by product to costs it's cost effectiveness against the alternatives you also then have to calculate those subsidies for the alternative options as well. And if we eliminate subsidies from both sides of the comparisons then those other options sky rocket and only makes these by products relatively cheaper to use. Being that the alternatives subsidies are for the alternatives themselves. The key thing here is that it's a by product of another product(s) and will always be available in quantities that are unable to be fully utilized anyways
They just won't stop making dairy products even without subsidies. And if they stopped subsidizing it there would be a significant reduction in the amount produced, but as I understand the industry that won't make a dent in the amount of these by-products needed given how little of it is actually used compared to how much is produced. I might be wrong on that but it is how I understand things to be and is what's informing my opinions here.
Who said we should eliminate subsidies from both sides? Subsidizing good things is good. Subsidizing bad things is bad.
We should subsidize the alternatives. I'm not some free market moron. I just recognize that the subsidies for milk make it cheaper to produce, and thus increase its production. Increased milk production means more byproducts with greater availability and cheaper costs. Whether it's a waste product or not is irrelevant, price is determined by supply and demand. Decrease supply, prices go up.
Then, maybe, we could make a world where no one exploits animals for their milk. It's definitely a first step.
Sorry it should have been understood that I meant eliminate it from the cost comparisons between it and it's alternatives.
I thought I did a good job of saying even if you eliminate the dairy subsidy it won't affect the cost of the by products used enough to stop them from being used. Because there is too much by product. Scale back all of the excess to just the amount that people will actually consume and not the excess created and still the remainder won't have enough uses to use it all.
Fun fact, a lot of shelf-stable peanut butter is actually defatted peanut flour remade into a paste with a cheaper canola or soy oil and a bit of sugar to mask the taste, so they can sell the peanut oil and the peanut butter it comes from.
I can't speak for other countries, but dairy farms are absolutely subsidized in the US.
Neither one of which is all that common compared to the rest of the population.
I mean, really depends on the region for lactose intolerance:
Worldwide, about 80% of people experience some form of lactose intolerance as they age past infancy, but there are significant differences between populations and regions. As few as 5% of northern Europeans are lactose intolerant, while as many as 90% of adults in parts of Asia are lactose intolerant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance#Epidemiology
I can't imagine it's an issue for the lactose intolerant. I wouldn't know though. It's such a small amount usually, and probably cooked, so I'm sure it won't cause any serious trouble.
Cooking does not affect lactose. And regarding the amount it depends how much lactase activity is left. If it's none, even tiny amounts will cause problems. Heck, lactose intolerance prevented the settling of Vikings in North America! (Well - that's probably not entirely true. The Natives one of the Viking boats encountered at one place were very friendly at first – and turned into fierce warriors driving away the Vikings after they were given a cheese as present. But facts shouldn't stand in the way of a good story.)
I remember steve-o saying in a podcast that the only non vegan thing he eats are monster munch chips or something, no idea what they are. He said it has milk powder in it and he can't comprehend why. He (jokingly?) said that he wants to get in touch with them because there are vegan alternatives. I wonder if he ever did.
When they make cheese, the more solid curds are separated from the more liquid whey. The harder the cheese, the more whey was pulled out. There is lots and lots of cheese made around the world, so there's lots and lots of whey created, and so it's a relatively cheap substance to get ahold of. Dried out, it's usually called "milk solids" (though that phrase can be used for other forms of dried out milk)
So yeah, it gets added to all sorts of things to make them taste milkier or sweeter. The thing is, the lactose in milk mostly ends up in the whey, not in the curds, so this really messes up people who are lactose intolerant. Lots of things end up having a high lactose content that you wouldn't normally expect to. Someone told me that KitKat bars have lots of it, though I haven't verified that.
example - I bought some instant oatmeal with added protein. It had pea protein which was fine. Next time i bought another brand because the first one wasn't available. Whey protein. Cue unhappy stomach noises.
I appreciate the new "CONTAINS:" labeling requirement in the US.
That's a new thing? Jfc
Relatively new. Right after INGREDIENTS: there is a line that says something like "CONTAINS: Milk, Soy, Wheat...".
The trick I use is to look at the allergens.
I do the same but unfortunately this usually doesn’t cover stuff like gelatin, or straight up meat, insect glazes, etc. so I’ve been caught out a few times from this.
When somebody unfamiliar with reading ingredients lists wants to get me something, I tell them to look at the allergen list first. Yeah, a lot of things aren't listed, but depending on the product, it can work as a cheat-sheet to easily know when something won't work.
My management team at work is pretty good to me. The management wants to include options for me when they do things like bring in ice cream for everyone. The first time they tried, they bought Lactaid brand (for those that don't know, it's a popular option for those with lactose intolerance. However, it still explicitly uses dairy.) I had to be the gentle bearer of bad news, but it was an opportunity to show them how to read an ingredient list. I pointed out the allergen list first and showed how milk was the first advisory listed. I told them that most vegan ice creams will explicitly say "vegan" these days, and you can find them at most supermarkets where we live. My bosses felt bad, but promised to make it up to me.
And they did. They got So Delicious ice cream bars next time. 🙂
i’m disabled and i have a lot of food allergies / sensitivities. my insurance is trying to have me get home delivered meals i can just microwave when im not well enough to do anything else.
i’m allergic to soy and coconut… the meal company has almost nothing i can eat. like maybe 3 meals.
the hamburger - not a veggie burger, actual meat - contains soy. the meat patty… contains soy. not “may contain,” actual soy protein is an ingredient of the meat patty alongside the meat.
the mac and cheese contains coconut… it’s not vegan mac and cheese. but it contains coconut
like why do they do this. do not the unnecessary ingredients
Just the other day I saw the frozen hamburger patties in the supermarket were made with 62% soy, then meat
Cost cutting measures...
Carnists won't even know when the vegan nation attacks. They'll already be eating their soy patties and drinking their soy milk.
It will be utter veganity.
!enshittification@lemmy.world
Just yesterday I was in a health food store examining the ingredient list on a bag of popcorn.
"Natural butter flavoring." No source listed, hmm...
Allergen alert, "Processed on equipment used by dairy." Okay, that's not a dealbreaker.
But the thing that made me put the bag back on the shelf was the fact that other products by that brand (which I can't recall the name of right now) made notes on the packaging when they were vegan. The one I was looking at just said "gluten-free." I figure that if the company wants to put little symbols showing when things are gluten-free, allergen-free, vegan, etc., they probably would do so with everything that fits the criteria, right? To appeal to more customers? The fact that it didn't specifically say it was vegan, even though other products did, made me suspicious.
I'm in the US, our laws concerning labeling the source of food additives suck. I can't imagine why the company would've omitted explicitly saying the product was vegan if that was the case, so I erred on the side of caution. I ended up getting Hippeas and Vegan Rob's puffs instead.
Lol I wasn't just reading a label that said "may contain milk"
I don't understand industrial food production
When I tried be vegan (for about a decade), I never managed to give up ghee.
Why? As in you find it in everything? I'm in north India and the only food I regularly find ghee in is sweets.
I make my own ghee. Found it essential for my many ailments. Tremendously beneficial for my dosha (vata prakruti). I put it in "everything". ;)
Things have gotten so much better in the the last 25 years (I've been vegan). The worst used to be long roadtrips. I remember I couldn't buy anything in the truckstops. Even roasted peanuts had goddamned gelatin in them!
Somebody's about to get Scott Pilgrimed
Please also check out Lemmy.vg for a great set of well-run communities for vegan news, science, cooking, circlejerking. It is a nice, cozy, all-in-one space for vegans.
We ask that the you have an understanding on what veganism is before engaging in this community.
If you think you have been banned erroneously, please get in contact with one of the other mods for appeals.
Moderator reports may not federate properly and may delay moderator action. Please DM an active mod if an abusive comment remains after reporting it.
Welcome to c/vegan@lemmy.world. Broadly, this community is a place to discuss veganism. Discussion on intersectional topics related to the animal rights movement are also encouraged.
'Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals ...'
— abridged definition from The Vegan Society
The rules are subject to change, especially upon community feedback.
A compilation of many vegan resources/sites in a Google spreadsheet:
Here are some documentaries that are recommended to watch if planning to or have recently become vegan:
Vegan Matrix Instance:
Vegan Dating App Veggly
Lemmy:
Mastodon:
!homecooks@vegantheoryclub.org
