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submitted 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago) by bluemoon@piefed.social to c/nostupidquestions@lemmy.world

i'll wager, from an armchair mind you, that this is because decrepeit Scrooges see it as a plus that the people from the regions most affected as "lesser people", while also holding on to money and ensuring states militarize to defend that money from increasingly pissed of people.

so TLDR ig racist old dudes appreciating what fascism does for 'em.

this is just an armchair assessment fron me though. why is fossil fuel still being used?

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[-] fizzle@quokk.au 3 points 3 hours ago

Because money obviously, but not the way you seem to think.

For the last 150 years, there's been loads of the stuff more or less lying around. It doesn't require much effort to bring to a usable state, and a cup full can move you, your wife and kids, your dog, and your car to the top of that hill in the distance.

Until very, very recently that's been a pretty unbeatable deal.

Now we're just building out the infrastructure and developing the maintenance skills. We're in the midst of a transition.

[-] bryndos@fedia.io 4 points 6 hours ago

Cheap , fairly-easy, portable, storable source of energy, and the current supply chains are very high capacity. Lots of well understood methods and machines to use it. An oil tanker on sea or land moves a hell of a lot of energy to wherever people want it.

Population keeps growing. No way are all of those people going to leave that stuff in the ground, if "we" don't take the cheap stuff, "they" will. So it becomes like a race to find and extract it all.

Even if you don't want it personally, someone in your economy or military will be better off for it. Some people will go looking for it - and someone'll get rich if they find it.

[-] MantisToboggon@lemmy.world 28 points 17 hours ago

It has a higher energy density than most other substances. I think it's like double lithium ion batteries.

[-] Limonene@lemmy.world 2 points 17 hours ago

Renewable liquid fuels have the same energy density.

[-] db2@lemmy.world 14 points 17 hours ago

But a higher cost to produce at volume.

If you mean corn ethanol it doesn't have the same kick.

We should just make everyone use hydrazine and let nature do its thing. 😆

[-] Limonene@lemmy.world 6 points 15 hours ago

Corn ethanol isn't really renewable either. It works better if made from sugarcane, but it's still a big food-vs-fuel problem.

[-] village604@adultswim.fan 3 points 16 hours ago

Doesn't it also gunk up engines?

[-] db2@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago

Yep.

https://ozrodders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54741

That isn't what I was referring to about nature though.

Hydrazine exposure can cause skin irritation/contact dermatitis and burning, irritation to the eyes/nose/throat, nausea/vomiting, shortness of breath, pulmonary edema, headache, dizziness, central nervous system depression, lethargy, temporary blindness, seizures and coma. Exposure can also cause organ damage to the liver, kidneys and central nervous system.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 2 points 24 minutes ago

yeah saw human health concerns from ethanol fuels spring up in glossing over articles

[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 2 points 16 hours ago

Than gasoline or diesel? No, they don't. Wikipedia has a large chart on their article for energy density of various sources. Some things are harder to directly compare with each other, but diesel has 38 MJ/L, with jet fuel/kerosene and gasoline at 36/35. Adding ethanol dilutes the energy output some, while pure ethanol is 24. It's still a potent source (but with its own costs and effects that need to be included in the net equation). Chemically petroleum simply has more bonds to break and get energy from.

[-] tate@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 14 hours ago

Biodiesel is a renewable liquid fuel.

[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 1 points 11 hours ago

Yes, it's on the list too at 33 MJ/L. Lower than conventional, but still higher than ethanol. The usual mix for drop in use with typical diesel engines is 10% bio/90% conventional. It's a good use of recycled material vs. just disposal.

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[-] zxqwas@lemmy.world 9 points 15 hours ago

Because it's cheap and easy to produce. Biofuels compete with food and forests. Not sure how much waste products can cover. Either way the biodiesel is about twice the price of the regular stuff here and has a lower tax rate than regular diesel (~43% tax rate)

It has a very high energy density. First Google result approx 10x that of batteries in EVs.

All the infrastructure is already built. EVs are becoming better and better options but the grid needs to be upgraded and the generation capacity increased.

[-] starlinguk@lemmy.world 14 points 16 hours ago

Fun fact: Shell patented tons of alternatives to fossil fuel and then shelved them.

Sauce: worked there.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 4 points 16 hours ago

Just so we're clear, that's Royal Dutch Shell industries, of very progressive, social democracy Netherlands, right?

[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 12 points 17 hours ago

two big reasons:

  • we don't have replacement energy sources at scale (this is of course party caused by inflated demand eg. data centers, always-on electronics)

  • energy production is heavily subsidized in that so-called external costs are paid by the public instead of the companies

Until we can both reduce demand and increase supply, while also making corporations pay the cost of the pollution they produce, we're stuck with this shit.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 7 points 17 hours ago

okay so shut down AI datacenters (reduce demand)

and smuggle in the cheap chinese solar panels just sitting in storage (increase supply)

[-] Eggymatrix@sh.itjust.works 8 points 16 hours ago
[-] Nemo@slrpnk.net 6 points 16 hours ago
[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 19 minutes ago

yeah. i am just burnt out from being online - on & off since the last decade - and am missing critical discussion in my local area. i would grow from dispelling issues with my take or you sharing your take on the topic. mutual antagonism is always detrimental.

[-] sbeak@sopuli.xyz 2 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

My sibling was 7 once, he would not be able to spell half those words. Definitely not 7.

[-] Jayb151@lemmy.world 2 points 12 hours ago

This response seems to have a strong misunderstand of how the world actually operates.

Also... Where you think the energy to make "cheap Chinese solar panels" is coming from?

Also also, the fact that you're talking about importing from one specific country makes me think... You're from a Western country where they artificially make these things limited? It's good to ask questions like this, but time to grow up. So some real research and see how you can make a genuine impact.

[-] bluemoon@piefed.social 1 points 16 minutes ago

i think you underestimate the bubble even scandinavian nations are in right now. do share your resources and know i want to know more

[-] bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 14 hours ago

I agree with this

[-] bastion@feddit.nl 3 points 13 hours ago

Because we don't need to generate the energy, therefore it's got a cost advantage, even though the true cost of it is that it contributes massively to climate problems.

That is: batteries must be charged, the plants to make biofuels must absorb solar energy for at least half a year to have energy present, the solar panels to power the grid must sit and soak up that energy, generators must be physically turned for hydro.

the only things that have pre-existing energy that we just "tap for free" are oil, coal, natural gas, and nuclear.

the best track for us to go on is to go for 3rd or 4th gen nuclear, and sodium ion batteries, imo. Solar is a close second. Hydro would be up there, but it's too disruptive ecologically.

[-] Talos@sopuli.xyz 1 points 10 hours ago

These are misconceptions, or rather a bit out of date.

Wind and solar are much cheaper than fossil fuels now. Significantly cheaper.

And is an old school investment bank presenting this information.

Even for running a car, using solar-produced electricity is a fraction of the cost of gasoline; gas is 3-5x more expensive.

And nuclear is not anywhere near as cheap as wind or solar unfortunately, although we haven’t put much effort into making it more efficient for a few decades now so that might change.

[-] bastion@feddit.nl 2 points 7 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago)

Solar is, on a consumer level, possibly more cheap than gas for a car now, in many areas. But more is actually done with oil->gasoline framework, including plastics and chemicals which would all need to be developed into new processes. I don't disagree that we need to replace these, but oil is literally free energy, and it's a substance with a lot of uses.

And that fact is one of the big reasons that oil is so hard to compete with - it is literally energy we do not have to generate. All other forms of energy we must actually capture the natural energy flow. In oil, it has already been captured - we're burning biomatter from years long gone. That's what makes it hard to compete with. Although, the competition is getting better, and that's good.

as far as the costs for a vehicle go - I actually live on solar, with a very cost effective system at $25k, 14kw.

If I had an electric car and drove 15k miles per year, I'd need up that system by 11kw at least. That's adding about $20k to that system.

Where I am, gas is cheaper tha than $3/gallon, but let's say it's $3/gallon.

at 30mpg gasoline, that's about $1500. At 30mpge, with my lower-than-average system costs, that's $2000. ..and that's not including maintenance and repair to that system.

Sure, there are a ton of other factors to take into account, both for and against. But electric is no clear winner from a personal-benefit perspective - particularly when you take cold weather into account for lithium batteries, and the inability to resolve an out-of-fuel situation easily. Sure, there are services. ..maybe. depending where you are. But, it's far from ideal for a lot of people.

anyways - no, nuclear is definitely not as cheap, but it provides base load power, which is critical. only alternatives there are fossil fuels, geothermal, and hydro. But the main draw for 3rd and 4th gen nuclear is how low-impact and environmentally friendly it can be, while still providing base load power.

now, if Sodium ion batteries live up to their promise of cycle longevity, then providing base load could be done by lots and lots of storage. maybe not cost effectively, yet, but it could, maybe.

[-] AmidFuror@fedia.io 4 points 14 hours ago

The mix of actual reasonable answers and "everyone here despises capitalism, so I'll just blame it on conspiracies involving the rich" answers is quite interesting.

The simplest answer is that almost everyone is motivated by what they can get out of a thing, and petroleum is cheaper than the alternatives. The infrastructure is already in place, and the downsides (including climate change) are paid for by everyone, not just the producers and biggest consumers.

[-] Unquote0270@programming.dev 1 points 4 hours ago

Another factor, albeit a smaller one, is that not everyone wants to move away from them. I have a friend who loves his classic cars and feels threatened by the thought that alternative methods would take away his biggest joy in life. There is also the practicality aspect - I don't drive but if I were to buy an electric car I have no idea where I would charge it, there's not that much of an infrastructure for it that I've seen near me.

[-] Limonene@lemmy.world 6 points 17 hours ago

I believe two reasons: first, political will. Fossil fuel companies are large and entrenched, and have lots of experience lobbying governments. They block things like carbon taxes.

Second, a strange sort of game theory where each player (each country) thinks "My individual contributions to greenhouse gasses are just a small part of the total. They won't cause global catastrophe. Just an incremental increase in the existing catastrophe. The incremental harm won't fall directly on me; it will be divided among many countries. If continuing to use fossil fuels provides some small economic advantage, it outweighs the portion of the harms that will land on me. As for the harms I experience from other countries' carbon emissions, there's nothing I can do to prevent them."

[-] village604@adultswim.fan 2 points 16 hours ago

Point one is so stupid because if they diversified into renewables they'd drastically increase their revenue streams.

[-] tate@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 14 hours ago

Downvoted for ageism.

[-] swordgeek@lemmy.ca 4 points 16 hours ago
[-] Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago

Switching to something new usually inherently costs money. (Capital expense) If you are scraping by, you can't afford another $500-$1000 a month car payment for a new car.

The option to convert an older already paid for internal combustion vehicle basically requires another $10k minimum, not including any regulatory stuff and that would be parts cost alone, no labor. Add to that regulatory/local registration issues with the diy route and you basically bake continued demand for fossil fuels into the system.

You can mitigate some of that by doing public transportation but you have to have a functional system AND an public that wants to use it.

This basically means that a large portion of the population who won't/can't buy new EVs. Is stuck using gas vehicles until you get lower cost used EVs. The problem there is that they are expensive to repair and NOT diy friendly. Add to that battery deg and lower reliability (in general see used teslas) and people are scared to buy used EVs.

Its a pricing problem that we have not gotten around yet. The subsidies helped but weren't enough to get more people in. Couple that with a bad economic situation where people are holding onto their older stuff for longer and you basically get only progress on the higher income side while lower income brackets have to still use their gas vehicles which means the producers keep producing and supplying to a captive market.

[-] village604@adultswim.fan 3 points 16 hours ago

It should be noted that the US government is the reason EVs in the US are so expensive.

[-] Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 1 points 14 hours ago

Why would you say that is? Not doubting you on that but it mostly seems like they are market priced as premium products. I.E. a Rivian is priced basically like a normal mid to high end suv. A base level model 3 is in line with a mid level camry iirc.

[-] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 13 hours ago

Because the government enacted tariffs on foreign made EVs that would have cost $10-20k in order to keep domestic prices high so the US auto industry can keep making record profits.

[-] Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 1 points 10 hours ago

My understanding is that they either don't meet us safety regulations both for crash testing and ev systems safety or they have not gone through the relevant regulatory steps to get those certificationa. The tarrifs certainly come into play as well though.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 3 points 16 hours ago

Because Standard Oil, Firestone and General Motors lobbied against public transportation, in the USA, so they could sell more cars.

[-] Know_not_Scotty_does@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

Yeah, I was mostly addressing the immediate reason. The historical ones are way more complex as you mentioned. Now, you have to overcome suburban sprawl and hostile urban development where everything is spread out, requiring a car to use as a direct result of our past shitty choices/lobbying efforts.

[-] Maeve@kbin.earth 1 points 14 hours ago

A little bit of the defense budget and the will to do it will get it done!

Eta: and create a jobs program. If we add renewables and green spaces, it may rival the New Deal jobs program!

[-] it_depends_man@lemmy.world 3 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

We can't replace it fully.

We can replace it with cars. We can replace it with trains as well, but electrified track is more expensive than just plopping a diesel engine there and filling her up. Track for that is just steel+concrete and rocks and stuff.

We can not replace it with air planes, helicopters, rockets. At all. We could reduce air travel and stuff like fighter jets.

We can also not replace it for cargo ships. And that's pretty bad news. Luckily ships are crazy efficient, so the actual CO2 and other pollution per ton and kilometer is very very low. If you get a delivery, that delivery comes in a fossil fuel truck to your doorstep, that truck will emit more CO2 than the ship will, going either from china to Rotterdam or the US westcoast. And also global transportation is probably more than necessary.

Anyway, the big problem we can solve are cars and planes.

There are also a bunch of chemical and industrial processes that need coal. Fertilizer and steel are two big ones.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 hours ago

Cargo ships could be replaced with nuclear. It would also be a significant gain as they are a significant source of pollution beyond CO2.

[-] it_depends_man@lemmy.world 1 points 1 hour ago

Theoretically yes, but in practice nuclear is very complicated technology that requires a lot training, expertise, care, maintenance and oversight.

Putting it into military ships and ice breaking ships makes sense because of their unique circumstances.

With cargo ships there are a lot of additional complicating factors: cargo ships regularly break and sink. Not a lot, but frequently enough that it is a legitimate concern. We already have trouble regulating regular cargo ships sea-worthiness and issues like environmental pollution through ship breaking, notably in india. That's another issue btw..

The biggest problem is the sheer number of cargo ships. Any risk of an accident gets multiplied by that.

You can browse the wiki page on nuclear propulsion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_marine_propulsion (btw, if it was economic to do it they would have done it already) It's "obvious" that the number of ships with nuclear propulsion are in the low hundreds. Meanwhile we have more than 100.000 merchant ships in operation at the moment. https://www.ener8.com/merchant-fleet-infographic-2023/

Operating "a few" ships safely is one thing, doing it with literally hundreds of thousands is something completely different.

[-] fizzle@quokk.au 0 points 3 hours ago

I don't think that's feasible. Imagine for-profit corporations being responsible for nuclear reactors floating around in international waters. I don't trust them with diesel certainly not nuclear.

It's easy to underestimate the maintenance requirements. Australia, UK, and US just signed a treaty to develop and produce nuclear subs. It's a big deal. It's going to take many decades and 100s of billions of dollars before UK and Aus have the capability to build and maintain nuclear subs.

[-] ryathal@sh.itjust.works 1 points 32 minutes ago

For profit companies already run reactors. Putting them on a boat is well understood. Nuclear subs are more about the sub part and military tech than the nuclear part.

[-] CarbonatedPastaSauce@lemmy.world 2 points 14 hours ago

You are correct.

Agriculture, shipping, and power generation together dwarf the petroleum used by road vehicles.

[-] mech@feddit.org 3 points 17 hours ago* (last edited 17 hours ago)

I tried to parse what you wrote, but I honestly can't make any sense of it.

the people from the regions most affected as “lesser people”

Pretty sure this part is missing a verb and an object.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 1 points 15 hours ago

Because it is somewhat competitive economically in certain use cases and a ton of existing infrastructure was already built to use various fossil fuels.

The switch to non-fossil fuels was going to take at least a generation in most developed countries since you need to build out electricity generation and storage.

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