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submitted 1 week ago by alyaza@beehaw.org to c/technology@beehaw.org

Cars used to be entirely mechanical objects. With hard work and expertise, basically any old vehicle could be restored and operated: On YouTube, you can watch a man drive a 1931 Alvis to McDonald’s. But the car itself was stuck in time. If the automaker added a feature to the following year’s model, you just didn’t get it. Things have changed. My Model 3 has few dials or buttons; nearly every feature is routed through the giant central touch screen. It’s not just Tesla: Many new cars—and especially electric cars—are now stuffed with software, receiving over-the-air updates to fix bugs, tweak performance, or add new functionality.

In other words, your car is a lot like an iPhone (so much so that in the auto industry, describing EVs as “smartphones on wheels” has become a go-to cliché.) This has plenty of advantages—the improved navigation, the fart noises—but it also means that your car may become worse because the software is outdated, not because the parts break. Even top-of-the-line phones are destined to become obsolete—still able to perform the basic functions like phone calls and texts, but stuck with an old operating system and failing apps. The same struggle is now coming for cars.

Software-dependent cars are still new enough that it’s unclear how they will age. “It’s becoming the ethos of the industry that everyone’s promising a continually evolving car, and we don’t yet know how they’re going to pull that off,” Sean Tucker, a senior editor at Kelley Blue Book, told me. “Cars last longer than technology does.” The problem with cars as smartphones on wheels is that these two machines live and die on very different timescales. Many Americans trade in their phone every year and less than 30 percent keep an iPhone for longer than three years, but the average car on the road is nearly 13 years old. (Tesla didn’t respond to a request for comment about how its cars age.)

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[-] skozzii@lemmy.ca 13 points 6 days ago

This article highlights a Tesla problem, not an EV problem.

The issue when you build a car around software is the software gets outdated and the the car is garbage.

Open sources EVs can be kept on the road just as easily as gas vehicles, as long as the gates are open to access the software.

Tesla has created their own issue, which will destroy them.

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 3 points 6 days ago

Other EV's have this problem too, so it isn't just a Tesla problem.

I think the main issue is what happens when software support ends. There are tons of industrial and medical equipment with outdated software that work well today, mainly because there is an air gap between their computers and the Internet. That air gap may need to be enforced onto cars as default in the future.

[-] ICastFist@programming.dev 7 points 6 days ago

Every single person with a working brain has been complaining about making cars more and more "connected" and reliant on software - it makes the cars LESS safe and less repairable. Heater or AC won't work? Sorry, you gotta subscribe to unlock that. Any customer who looks at that and says "That makes sense, the company can't give that out for free" is a fucking idiot who deserves to be scammed out of their money

[-] nolikeymachine@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 days ago

This article is nonsense. However, electric cars have a lot to overcome before they're able to actually take over the whole market. Personally I don't know anyone who wants an electric car. They've already came out and said that they didn't have enough material for enough batteries for everyone in the US to have an electric car. The power grids can't support everyone having an electric car. The batteries usually go bad around 10-15 years old, which are very expensive to replace which also prevents people from wanting to buy one because it costs more to replace the battery than most vehicles cost to replace the engine and the engine lasts much longer than 10 years (unless it's a Hyundai or you don't change the oil). So a lot of people would just put it up for sale and try to buy another car but nobody would buy it for what it's worth. Again, they have a lot of issues to correct before everyone having an electric car is even remotely feasible.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 13 points 6 days ago

They’ve already came out and said that they didn’t have enough material for enough batteries for everyone in the US to have an electric car

17 million last year, 60 million in total globally. Where do you get your information.

The power grids can’t support everyone having an electric car.

sure they can. They support everyone having a toaster or a dryer.

The batteries usually go bad around 10-15 years old

300,000 -400,000 miles.

How many ICE cars make it to 400,000 miles?

prevents people from wanting to buy one because it costs more to replace the battery than most vehicles cost to replace the engine and the engine

This has been true in ICE for decades.

[-] nolikeymachine@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 days ago

Lmaooo your logic is so broken. The new new electric vehicle batteries are only rated for 15-20 years at the most. Not including the reduced lifespan that they have already been proven to have in the cold northern states and the issues that salty roads introduce to that. But just for arguments sake the average American drives 13,500 miles a year. Which comes to just over 200,000 miles in 15 years and 270,000 miles in 20 years. And that's IF you get the maximum life. I know PLENTY of people who have well over 300,000 miles on their gas vehicles and diesels last even longer. And the batteries cost around $10,000 on average but the range is $5,000 to $20,000. Engines range from $3,000 to $7,000 new and you have options for used or remanufactured for cheaper (which you can't do for batteries). And you can't literally just Google it, our electrical grids CANNOT currently support everyone having an electric car. Hell California can't even make it through the summer without grid outages due to overuse just from air conditioning lmao. If you just Google it you will find out that they have already done studies that show we need to put around 2 trillion to 4 trillion dollars into our electrical infrastructure (neighborhood transformers and house electrical panels) and main transmission grid systems in order to support everyone switching to electric vehicles. And it would take a few decades to get it all completely done. But realistically given we had the funding already setup we could likely have most people ready to go in about 15 -20 years and everyone done by 30 years. But we don't so it'll be at least 30. And once more and more people get electric vehicles and they improve designs and improve batteries, then it'll likely take less power and batteries will likely be cheaper and easier to make. And once all of that happens, then gas powered vehicles will start to completely fade away. But they'll still be the better option (for the general population) until all of those things happen

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 days ago

Software-dependent cars are still new enough that it’s unclear how they will age.

Not at all. They die young.

[-] TachyonTele@piefed.social 133 points 1 week ago

The writer owns a tesla.
All communication disregarded.

[-] andyburke@fedia.io 40 points 1 week ago

Thank you for saving me the click. 🤝

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 7 points 1 week ago
[-] TachyonTele@piefed.social 44 points 1 week ago

We don't know why people buy teslas yet.

[-] entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 30 points 1 week ago

Because Teslas have dogshit reliability and all have OTA updates, whereas other brands don't suffer from these issues.

[-] NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io 8 points 1 week ago

Maybe it's not enough for them to buy a new car? I mean it's 6 years old; I'm pretty sure Tesla was the only player in the EV scene back then.

[-] Asetru@feddit.org 17 points 1 week ago

I'm pretty sure Tesla was the only player in the EV scene back then.

Absolutely not.

I bought a BEV back then. It was a VW Golf. Still driving it. The leaf, eNiro and i3 were contenders for me.

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[-] PabloSexcrowbar@piefed.social 12 points 1 week ago

That's when I bought mine, and it was either get a Model 3 with ~270 miles of range or a Nissan Leaf or a tiny BMW iQ, both with like 80.

For the record, if the software updates stopped where they're at today, I'd be fine with how the car functions until the end of its life. In fact, I kinda wish they'd just leave things alone at this point because I don't want any extra features out of the thing.

[-] MalReynolds@piefed.social 14 points 1 week ago

For the record, if the software updates stopped where they’re at today, I’d be fine with how the car functions until the end of its life. In fact, I kinda wish they’d just leave things alone at this point because I don’t want any extra features out of the thing.

And therein lies the rub, you don't get to choose, the corpo does and you have to trust them (you do trust them, don't you?). Pretty much like you're renting, not owning. As the article points out this is similar to phone 'ownership', hopefully in the fullness of time there will be a GrapheneOS equivalent for cars...

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[-] GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 week ago

I have a 2017 Leaf. It absolutely has its drawbacks compared to most modern cars, but it did exist 6 years ago.

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[-] 18107@aussie.zone 42 points 1 week ago

My 2012 Nissan Leaf is still doing fine.

Maybe it's not an issue with EVs, but with overbearing automakers.

[-] Tinidril@midwest.social 14 points 1 week ago

I really don't think it has much to do at all with ICE vs Electric vehicles. It just so happens that both transitions are going on at the same time. If anything, the electronics involved in running an average modern ICE vehicle are more complicated and more proprietary than an average electric vehicle.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 10 points 1 week ago

Tesla now makes the battery pack integral with their gigapress frames, so the batteries cannot be replaced. The cars are glued together over cast aluminum so yeah, it's a fucking iphone on wheels.

[-] dom@lemmy.ca 39 points 1 week ago

Isnt this all cars and not just evs?

[-] scytale@piefed.zip 24 points 1 week ago

I think what is being implied is EVs will have planned obsolescence even if they are perfectly working fine, like smartphones. Whether it be irreplaceable batteries, or software updates not being backward compatible. Regular cars are capable of lasting until they literally break down and die.

[-] adespoton@lemmy.ca 28 points 1 week ago

Regular cars have been increasingly slaved to the on-board computer since the 1990s though.

You can only buy a few modern cars that don’t send constant telemetry back to the manufacturer, for example — just like televisions.

[-] Rhaedas@fedia.io 7 points 1 week ago

There's different levels of computerized control though. Would fuel injection and other modern efficiency and safety systems be possible without a main computer? I wouldn't trade my days with simple mechanical cars and carburetors from the learning experience, but I also wouldn't go back if I had a choice.

The line crossed was being connected to work, not computers themselves. I agree that the modern car market is a minefield in whether or not there's anything you could get that isn't dependent in some way on being online. Buy used, there's still stuff out there that will give long life, has been tested by the first owners, and doesn't have the manufacturer's grip on it.

[-] Asetru@feddit.org 9 points 1 week ago

That's literally their point?

Regular cars are capable of lasting until they literally break down and die.

These don't exist anymore. If they do, it doesn't matter if they move by burning fossils or electricity. It's not a matter of EVs being movable smart devices that will be left behind eventually, it's a matter of cars being like that.

[-] artyom@piefed.social 7 points 1 week ago

No batteries are irreplaceable. It would be really stupid to do that because then the OEM would have to throw away the entire vehicle when there was any sort of battery issue. Software updates have nothing to do with the powertrain. It's not an EV problem.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 1 points 6 days ago

LOL. Both neighbors on either side of me lease Teslas and both have had the cars replaced because Tesla could not fix them.

[-] artyom@piefed.social 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

...and? Do you think lemon laws were created before or after Tesla?

[-] GreenCrunch@piefed.blahaj.zone 14 points 1 week ago

yeah, you can't really buy a car that doesn't have mobile data for "telemetry" (your driving data is sold to insurance companies)

even base trims get some phone app stuff, meaning there's the ability to execute commands on the car. so, if they really wanted, there's nothing stopping automakers from bricking your car, gas or EV, because they feel like it.

yipee...

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[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 29 points 1 week ago

Bullshit article. Absolutely nothing about these problems is unique to EVs.

[-] skaffi@infosec.pub 2 points 6 days ago

Indeed. It's probably more that increasingly more commodities are becoming "smart", including, but not limited to EVs. I think the reason people are specifically noticing or talking about the "ensmartification" of EVs is because cars are so vastly much more expensive than any other "smart" commodity that, and for most people, an investment of that size needs to be something you can either rely on working for X number of years, or at the very least insure yourself against that happening. But a gadget that can be turned hostile to you, at the drop of a single auto-update, is anything but reliable or dependable - and to my knowledge, becoming enshittified represents a "special" kind of broken, that you can't insure yourself against.

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 3 points 6 days ago

Again. None of this is unique to EVs. Cars with internal combustion engines are at least equally as enshittified. At LEAST.

[-] causepix@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 week ago

Yeah its whole thing is that software gets outdated but like ...?

A) The latest ICE vehicles are equally tech'd out the wazoo, infotainment is 1:1 and mechanically they've even phased out gear shifters for ones completely controlled by electronics.

B) Software doesn't just stop working, it's hardware that becomes obsolete. Windows XP still runs the same as it ever did on the right hardware. There are servers around from the 90s that are still running software written in programming languages that don't exist anymore. If you always run the same software on the same hardware (as you do in automotive; most vehicles don't require more than 1-2 OTA updates per year, purely for bug fixes, and each one has a unique build specifically made for its hardware) there's no reason the two should ever lose compatibility.

C) Reliability is a major factor, taken into account by OEMs, that isn't nearly as high stakes for other tech sectors. An $800 phone dies in a few years, so what, the buyer has most likely already moved on to the next generation. A $35K car dies in a few years, you've probably lost a good number of buyers for life and definitely screwed them over in terms of resale value. Phone OS crashes, whatever, just restart it. Automotive software fails, well people's lives could very easily be in jeopardy.

It's not the modular, one-size-fits-all, update-till-the-hardware-fails, move-fast-break-things approach taken in lower-stakes computing. To liken it to a smartphone is completely ridiculous.

[-] noddy@beehaw.org 7 points 6 days ago

A) This. We should stop making this a EV thing. It's a modern car thing. Electric drivetrain in its essence, is a simple and reliable technology. Its everything else surrounding it thats the issue.

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 days ago

As if Jeep has figured out how to make a transmission last as long as the warranty. EVs are full of stupid gadgetry to design in obsolescence, because the industry knows from GM Trolley buses and the EV1 these vehicles last a lot longer.

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 3 points 6 days ago

ICE cars are full of the same gadgetry, so once again this has fuck all to do with EVs.

[-] Megaman_EXE@beehaw.org 12 points 1 week ago

If we can push towards green electricity generation, I would be up for an electric car. Where I live our electricity isn't green so it feels kind of...counter intuitive in a sense.

My main gripe with any new vehicle is touch screens. If there's a touch screen in the thing ima flip a table. Give me physical buttons please. Oh I guess my secondary gripe is trying to make cars compact in ways that make it impossible difficult to work on yourself.

I want smaller cars, but I also want something that people can work on easily.

[-] noxypaws@pawb.social 13 points 1 week ago

our electricity isn't green so it feels kind of...counter intuitive in a sense

Even if your power source is burning coal, it's still less harmful to drive an EV powered by coal than an ICE car powered by gasoline or diesel.

This oil and coal industry talking point has been debunked time and time again.

Hell, even Forbes of all outlets has an article about it: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikescott/2020/03/30/yes-electric-cars-are-cleaner-even-when-the-power-comes-from-coal/

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[-] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 12 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Over bloan. Software does not age but security does. Other things that do not age well is specialty tech hardware components. Batteries are a question too.

I know my volt at 10 years does not have a viable oem battery replacement (back ordered and nutty price). I can get a reasonable after market battery though.

[-] philpo@feddit.org 12 points 1 week ago

Well, the AM transmitter in the old car won't work anymore as well.

Cars do age the same in terms of user experience - they are simply frozen in the state they are. (And at least within the EU can be operated fully offline)

The author seems to be more concerned that his car might not get "new features" anymore - and that bothers hims as the "free update" culture is extending to a lot of things. Technology advances but nothing has changed about that - that was always the case and now we can at least update some things.

While I would love to have a carnaker offer a open source plattform that would make people able to update and modify the entertainment/navigation part of their car I actually spoke to a car makers product manager about it - and sadly the multitude of regulations cars fall under in their various markets makes that basically impossible.

More important would be that we campaign for other things in terms of laws (some are in place in the EU but are currently under pressure):

  • Manufacturers need to provide security updates for online functions for 10 years after the end of production.

  • Manufacturers need to provide navigation updates for 5 years after the end of production

  • Cars need a designated fully offline mode

  • Driving data obtained must not be used for commercial purposes. (Currently already implemented in the GDPR)

  • Important and often overlooked: Manufacturers must provide service software tools for cars for ALL repair shops and for at least 20 years after end of production. AND we need to work towards an open source industry standard.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 11 points 1 week ago
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[-] reksas@sopuli.xyz 7 points 1 week ago

i wonder when first teslas start bricking up just so people have to buy new one

[-] SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 days ago

They already brick any Tesla with a salvage title from using a supercharger.

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this post was submitted on 26 Nov 2025
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