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submitted 1 year ago by Wilshire@lemmy.world to c/ukraine@sopuli.xyz
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[-] 0110010001100010@lemmy.world 236 points 1 year ago

When it comes down to it, this is a hell of a deal for the US. We spend a tiny fraction of our military budget to de-fang Putin and don't have to fire a single shot ourselves.

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 128 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Better than defanging is real world testing.

What worked as expected, what didn't, how we can make it better etc.

It's not often you get to deploy these weapons.

[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago

What will happen to the US defense budget now that we know it's unnecessary?

That was rhetorical by the way, I know it's going to increase.

[-] Stumblinbear@pawb.social 45 points 1 year ago

Not sure about "unnecessary." 5% works for Ukraine but also it has a much smaller land mass. You can't use that 5% to protect the entirety of the US' borders along with every other place we are stationed along with the required ongoing maintenance

I'm not saying the budget isn't ridiculously high, but also saying it's unnecessary as a whole is just incorrect

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[-] ares35@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

still necessary. russia isn't the only potential adversary out there

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[-] Piecemakers3Dprints@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago

Watch the Ukranian drone ops teams taking contracts after this is all done. The Winged Hussars ride again! 🤘🏼💀

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

There was an article a few days ago about how the soldiers stopped following some of their western training as it wasn't working / appropriate for their situation.

I imagine there will also be some cross training where they update the American soldiers on what worked and didn't work and why.

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[-] CoderKat@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

I'm not sure just how much the US spends on weapon testing, but I imagine it's a bonkers number. And now they get an opportunity to test in a real environment, with some other country's army to do much of the heavy lifting?

I do software dev and testing stuff is expensive. Real world testing is a particularly difficult and pricey thing to do. It's not easy to simulate realistic usage and it's super common to discover all sorts of issues only when something is used outside of controlled conditions. That's why so many web products get the hug of death. It's why Lemmy has had so many problems not just with scaling, but things like UX. It's so easy to not realize even "obvious" problems when you don't have a large number of real users.

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[-] masterofn001@lemmy.ca 148 points 1 year ago

Unfortunately, the target audience also wear shirts which say "I'd rather be Russian than democrat"

They may take it as an attack against themselves.

[-] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 75 points 1 year ago

They should go sign up to fight on the Russian front lines then

[-] snownyte@kbin.social 38 points 1 year ago

Nah, it's easier for them to sit on their fatasses and do the bare minimum of movement while they tout their shitty flags and shirts about in their traitorous stances. They're the same people that wouldn't even sign up to be in the US Army, but will swear up and down about "IF I WAS THERE..." stories of power fantasies.

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[-] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 15 points 1 year ago

But if you can reframe Ukraine as sticking it to those democrats who don't like military, they might be on board.

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[-] bradorsomething@ttrpg.network 96 points 1 year ago

We need an attack ad: "Why are some republicans afraid of russia?"

[-] TheWoozy@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

They are not afraid of Russia they are enthralled by Russia. They serve Putin because they are indebted to him.

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[-] CarlG@esq.social 95 points 1 year ago

@Wilshire I cannot think of a time in recent history when we have gotten more bang for our military buck than supporting #Ukraine against #Russia .

Not only are we doing the right thing by helping a democratic nation fight an invasion by an expansionist regime, but this aid has helped weaken one of our two main adversaries, and serves as a warning to China.

This is truly one of those win/win situations where the only debate should be the degree of military aid, not whether we support Ukraine.

[-] tacosplease@lemmy.world 47 points 1 year ago

Besides. Ukraine gave up nukes because we promised to protect them. There's a tremendous cost to going back on our word for soooo many reasons.

[-] chiliedogg@lemmy.world 37 points 1 year ago

We didn't promise to protect them. But Russia and the US both promised not to invade.

Of course, we should still help them because it's the right thing to do AND is harmful to our average.

But I do think the worst thing about this war from a geopolitics standpoint is Russia going back on its word. They've essentially proven that no nation should ever give up their nukes.

[-] AssPennies@lemmy.world 14 points 1 year ago

no nation should ever give up their nukes

No nation within invasion distance of Russia, anyway.

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[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 69 points 1 year ago

Does this include giving them old equipment which they'd have to dispose of anyway? Because that's not exactly "spending". Some even say that it saves money because they have no disposal cost.

[-] pennomi@lemmy.world 44 points 1 year ago

Hopefully Ukraine keeps “disposing” all of our ammunition in the general direction of the invaders.

[-] FleetingTit@feddit.de 17 points 1 year ago

That stuff has a limited shel(l)f life anyways.

[-] jasondj@ttrpg.network 37 points 1 year ago

Don’t forget that the old gear has to be replaced. That’s good American jobs right there.

[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 29 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It was going to be replaced regardless of Ukraine, that's the point. It was to be junked anyway.

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[-] randon31415@lemmy.world 48 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thats assuming the republicans and tankies WANT Putin's army destroyed. To them, this sounds like what a normal person would hear if we said: "We've used 5% of our defense budget to arm the IRA and 50% of Britain's army has been destroyed."

[-] TheTetrapod@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago

Now hold on, is funding the IRA on the table?

[-] randon31415@lemmy.world 26 points 1 year ago

Yes, but only $6,500 per person, and it is only tax deductible if you don't give it to a guy named Roth.

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[-] Ilovethebomb@lemmy.ml 36 points 1 year ago

I fucking hate computer generated voices, the cadence is always fucking weird. This one is far too fast, and the pause between words is too short.

It's just weird.

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[-] Zuberi@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 points 1 year ago

Nobody answered me. Is there PROOF of the 50% claim here?

How can I view non-biased information about the war?

[-] TiKa444@feddit.de 28 points 1 year ago

It's hard to say, that it's prooved. Probably even the US Ministry of Defence has no totaly exact lists.

But there are good estimations based on reports and leaked footage.

For example oryx has a list with destroyed vehicles and equipment based on photographic or videographic evidence. The real numbers are probably significantly higher.

After this list the russian army lost more than 2000 tanks. Ukrainian sources says that the Invasion started with more than 3000 tanks.

Ca. 1000 of the 2000 lost tanks were T-72 (the most common tank in the russian army). According to estimations russia has 2000 T-72 in active service and maybe 10.000 or more as reserves. The reserves are mostly remnants of the soviet Union and old models that are never modernized. Satellite pictures show that a big part of this reserves are stored in open depots with no weather protection. Maybe russia could make some of this vehicles usable, it will cost Billions to repair and modernize them.

So, no there is no proof, that the ukrainian army destroyed 50% of the russian forces. But there are proofs that russia lost a significant part of its active forces (probably something close to this claim) and that they definitly lost much more value than the americans, the europeans, ect. invested in the ukrainian army.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/tanks-russia-how-many-putin-military-ukraine-leopard-2-abrams-2108097

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72

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[-] Wrongleverkrunk@lemm.ee 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Give em 20%

[-] tsonfeir@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago

I doubt it will get their support seeing as they’re in bed together.

[-] Beanedwizard@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

Does anyone have a source about the Russian attrition rate? I can’t find one

[-] olafurp@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

They’re conservative about planes and attack helis but have enough. Money is good, oil good, cash reserves ok debt to GDP more than good. Workforce very big but affected

But still... They’re low on tanks, artillery shells, Combat experience, Air defence systems,

Russia as a whole is doing fine attrition wise but they’re equipment is being blown back 40 years. On top of that Ukrainians are doing very well and are cost effective. Russia spends multiple $ for every $ sent to Ukraine.

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[-] 1st@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

It's worded in such a way as to be meaningless - half of what? The original number of Russian soldiers, the original number plus Wagner and other extra troops, the current number deployed with/without mercenaries? Plus Russia's numbers don't look like US numbers, don't quite look like Ukraines numbers.

That said heres the first source I found:

Russia’s military casualties, the officials said, are approaching 300,000. The number includes as many as 120,000 deaths and 170,000 to 180,000 injured troops. The Russian numbers dwarf the Ukrainian figures, which the officials put at close to 70,000 killed and 100,000 to 120,000 wounded.

...

Russia has almost triple that number, with 1,330,000 active-duty, reserve and paramilitary troops — most of the latter from the Wagner Group.

Those numbers refer to the current number of deployed and undeployed Russian soldiers plus mercenaries, which is clearly not the numbers the ad is using.

To be clear, I fully support Ukraine and fully support the US guaranteeing missile manufacturers that we will buy new missiles even if the war ends tomorrow to incentivise greater production. I just think the ad played with the numbers until they said what we want them to say.

Source for both quotes: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html

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this post was submitted on 24 Sep 2023
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