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submitted 4 weeks ago by Bidah@thelemmy.club to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world
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[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 119 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Not intrinsically, but pretty commonly it is driven by bigotry over culture, religion or skin colour.

You know all the people up in arms over the wave of Ukrainian refugees? Oh wait, there's nothing of the sort? Well, there you go.

[-] scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.tech 65 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

I think it's very telling that it's not about "How do we allow them in legally" but it's about "Kick them out". If they were simply mad about illegal immigration then the natural discourse would be "Why do they not come over legally then?" The answer there is that of course it's insanely difficult to legally become a citizen of the US, and it can take years - even decades, but people have a family that's hungry now.

The discourse going to "Kick them out" shows that it's not about legal immigration at all, it's that they don't want a specific type of person around them. Otherwise we'd be having fairs and events to help people get their citizenship right now. After all they want to be here, the even want to pay taxes. If they just need to come in legally then the vast majority would, if our process allowed it.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 18 points 4 weeks ago

The answer there is that of course it’s insanely difficult to legally become a citizen of the US, and it can take years - even decades, but people have a family that’s hungry now.

Same for other places. Even Canada, which is apparently one of the best destinations, has a system that's poorly designed to the point of maliciousness.

[-] Witchfire@lemmy.world 14 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

It took my dad about 15-20 years in the US to get citizenship. It took my friend about 10 in Canada. Both are fucking terrible, but the US is a special kind of processed garbage

[-] Tujio@lemmy.world 20 points 4 weeks ago

Exactly. In and of itself, criticizing illegal immigration is simply criticizing an illegal act. However, it is usually steeped in racist logic and arguments. Talking about how people who come over our southern border are genetically inferior and prone to crime is racist as fuck. Adding roadblocks to immigration for brown people while simultaneously streamlining immigration of white South Africans (the guys who did Apartheid) is racist as fuck.

[-] MyDarkestTimeline01@ani.social 10 points 4 weeks ago
[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 4 weeks ago

Where, and to what degree relative to Arabs or Latin Americans or whatever?

Like sure, you can find someone who said it was bad somewhere, but even in places like Romania or Poland they were never the main target of the xenophobic rage.

[-] DeathsEmbrace@lemmy.world 11 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Thats because the media didnt try to cause mass hysteria. Man you guys are so easily manipulated by media i think we should force psychological classes so you can see the warning signs of manipulation

Edit: you are the easiest people to manipulate and its already obvious.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Uh-huh. Straight to forced re-education programs and shadowy conspiracies.

When the fascists send people to argue for them, they're not sending their best.

Edit: Cool cowardly edit.

[-] meco03211@lemmy.world 7 points 4 weeks ago

No no... that's their best.

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[-] yesman@lemmy.world 79 points 4 weeks ago

Every time I meet someone who opposes illegal immigration but claims to support legal immigration I ask one question. If the law changed so that all immigration was legal, you'd be fine with it, right?

Nobody so far has been fine with it. I conclude that the question of legality is a dodge for people who are embarrassed about their actual motives.

[-] SippyCup@lemmy.ml 25 points 4 weeks ago

Oh my God the HEMMING and HAWING when suggesting easier immigration to one of these bigots.

They will do anything to avoid answering that question. It's really disgusting

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[-] cAUzapNEAGLb@lemmy.world 50 points 4 weeks ago

No, but it is racist to assume that a person is an illegal immigrant based solely on their race.

Likewise, i think there is a deeper connection being made, that theres an assumption that an illegal immigrant is a bad person, and i also do not think that is a valid assumption.

To know if a person is a bad person, you have to know the person.

[-] matcha_addict@lemy.lol 36 points 4 weeks ago

I am yet to hear a justification for opposing illegal immigration that doesn't tie back into racism or racial prejudice, let alone a justification that actually makes sense if you take it apart.

Someone prove me wrong, and I'll change my mind.

[-] se7enfeet@lemmy.zip 9 points 4 weeks ago

Essentially this. There are no arguments against immigration that arent racist or xenophobic.

[-] Iceblade02@lemmy.world 8 points 4 weeks ago

If you have a society with robust social welfare systems - education, healthcare, social security, pensions, childcare, housing etc. etc., mass immigration becomes a massive problem.

Everything is taken care of via taxes, and those taxes come from a productive working population. Slow population growth (whether from births or immigration) allows social institutions to expand at a matching rate over the decades.

Rapid population increases from migration can overwhelm the systems in place and put society in a spot where it is no longer able to maintain them.

Furthermore, when it comes to illegal immigrants, it gets doubly bad. They can't hold down a legal job (at least in my country, and thus not pay taxes either), which inevitably pushes them towards crime or illegal jobs which brings a whole host of other issues.

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[-] fubo@lemmy.world 30 points 4 weeks ago

It's racist to use immigration law to maintain a racial underclass. For instance, many essential agricultural workers in the US do not have access to the courts or law enforcement to protect their rights. If a citizen assaults one of these workers, the worker cannot safely report the assault to law enforcement without being punished for doing so.

[-] LettyWhiterock@lemmy.world 29 points 3 weeks ago

I feel like "illegal" immigration as a concept is inherently racist and being upset and anyone for not coming over the "right" way is also racist.

[-] asceticism@lemmy.world 6 points 3 weeks ago

Even if the law bars say only pedodiles from entry? Just hung up on the word anyone here. I'm guessing there are some number of people we can all agree should be kept outside of a given sect of people. Even back in the day there would be exile's.

Then if we say some number of people should be bared there would be a "right" way.

I'm not saying immigration policy is good now. Far from it.

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[-] socsa@piefed.social 27 points 3 weeks ago
[-] DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 22 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

being a nazi should be illegal

deport musk

[-] fodor@lemmy.zip 22 points 4 weeks ago

In the US and many other countries, immigration violations are not crimes. Therefore, those immigrants are not illegal. It is actually a civil infraction, like a parking ticket... So, your question reveals hidden xenophobic bias. That alone is immoral. Is it racist in itself? Probably. It is very difficult to be xenophobic without also being racist.

[-] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

I think those are just semantics.

I get the feeling of not wanting to criminalize the existence of a person.

But it's common language to say that civil infractions are illegal.

You could totally say "It's illegal to park here" even if you would just get a ticket for that.

I get the feeling. But I don't think it is rational to think that anyone writing "illegal immigration" is racist.

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[-] daniskarma@lemmy.dbzer0.com 20 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

Is your opposition to ilegal immigration based on race or skin color?

If the answer is yes then, yes, you are racist. If the answer is no, then no, you are not racist.

[-] the_crotch@sh.itjust.works 7 points 4 weeks ago

Probably still xenophobic though

[-] dnick@sh.itjust.works 19 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago)

No, not on it's own, but it's rarely on its own. In the US opposition to illegal immigrants and racism tracks nearly one to one.

One could imagine a country where illegal immigration itself was a distinct problem, where the society was balanced in such a way that legal immigration was at an optimal rate and additional people coming into the country had downsides that outstripped the positives, when though, for example, the immigrants were of the same culture/class/standing as the existing citizens.

The US, on the other hand, is nowhere near an optimal legal immigration rate, even though we benefit pretty significantly from both legal and illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants, for example, contribute significantly to the economy while not drawing 'as many' benefits away. Overwhelmingly the actual arguments against illegal immigration are grounded in cultural differences and language and, to put it simply, the desire for one class to want a reason to consider themselves better than another class by an easily recognizable yardstick.

[-] Dorkyd68@lemmy.world 19 points 4 weeks ago

I feel like if you're asking then you're searching for validation. A sort of way to not feel guilty about being racist. Tell me, what bothers you most about immigrants? This country wouldn't exist if it weren't for immigrants

[-] rikudou@lemmings.world 8 points 4 weeks ago

What "this country"? Lemmy?

And I understand them searching for validation. It might be hard being anti-illegal-immigrant and everyone thinking you racist, even though your reasons are not racist nor xenophobic at all.

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[-] itztalal@lemmings.world 18 points 3 weeks ago

No, race doesn't have anything to do with it.

If you oppose illegal immigration, though, you should ask yourself why.

If it's solely that you don't want people coming over to your nation illegally, then it's very likely that they aren't able to because of how complicated and exclusive your nation's immigration system is.

[-] pixeltree 16 points 3 weeks ago

I wouldn't say it's racist to oppose illegal immigration, but it makes me suspect you might be and also makes me think you have very little empathy.

[-] 0_o7@lemmy.dbzer0.com 16 points 3 weeks ago

Nothing makes you more racist than having a legal alibi to hide your racism.

This question reeks of asking if keeping slaves when they were "legal" racist? If it's legal, what's the big deal?

[-] PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca 13 points 3 weeks ago

Usually, yes
Because usually the reason they have to be illegal is racist, and the person complaining about illegal immigration is fine with it.

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[-] Theprogressivist@lemmy.world 12 points 4 weeks ago

Not really, but most people's reasoning is racist.

[-] Jikiya@lemmy.world 12 points 4 weeks ago

Most of the current immigration laws are due to racist intent. In the 80s they didn't like how many Mexicans were coming across the border each year to do farm work. The workers would come, stay while there was work to be had, and then return home. When new laws were enacted making it harder for workers to get across the border, there came a class of people that would sneak the workers across. And this came with a fee from the workers. Now it costs them more to get here, so they need to stay longer to make up the money. It became easier to just find a place to live in the US all year round.

The US needs the Mexican workers. To simultaneously demand help, and punish them for showing up to help is dumb, and I suspect fueled by racist thoughts. The immigrants boost our economy, help feed our population, and are less likely to break laws that citizens. There's a whole (probably many) book about it, and it's even in comic form. https://www.amazon.com/Open-Borders-Science-Ethics-Immigration/dp/1250316960

While we need to know who is coming across our border to prevent spys and terrorists, the current laws make those entrants easier to hide, as there is now a whole industry to sneak people across.

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[-] DomeGuy@lemmy.world 12 points 4 weeks ago

YES.

If you're an American, our entire history of immigration legislation is racism bundled on racism following in the tradition of racism. Were it not for chattel slavery and our betrayal of the native tribes our racist immigration laws would be the most shameful part of our history.

And if you're not American, your own country's immigration laws are almost certainly based on either racism or "nationalism", with the latter mostly being a holdover from when "French" and "English" were considered different races.

Unlawful emmigration to a country should be, at worst, a bureaucratic fine and probation. Anything more is simply bigotry in a polite suit.

[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 12 points 3 weeks ago

It really depends on why you oppose them. There is no real answer to that question.

[-] rising_man@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Considering the high proportion of the population with ancestors who were illegal immigrants, there's also a question of what you consider as acceptable.

If illegal immigrants in the US are all white Christian beautiful women filling jobs that locals don't want to do in healthcare, is it different than Pedro from Honduras who works in construction but looks like he could be a drug mule.

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[-] stephan262@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago

Short answer yes with an if. The long answer is no with a but.

I'd say it's racist if someone is complaining about illegal immigrants alongside a general contempt of 'foreigners' and not paying attention to the details of why it's illegal for them to migrate the way they did and what options are available for legal migration.

It's not racist to be opposed to those who are in violation of the law, as that is not a racial or ethnic classification. But it is important to be inquisitive as to why the law is the way that it is, and be willing to consider the possibility that just because something is against the law does not mean that it should be. Law has long been used as a tool of systemic oppression and racism, as well as many other horrific abuses inflicted on people.

[-] rowinxavier@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago

The term is a little racist. It is like defining someone as an excon, or ex convict, rather than someone who has spent time in prison. Or as disabled rather than a person with a disability. You define people as a simple thing rather than as a whole person with a feature. It flattens people into less than they are and makes them less than human.

So opposing people who flaunt the rules is a separate question to opposing illegal immigrants. You don't dismiss their humanity, you don't discard them, you say "You breeched the rules and here are the consequences."

The second layer is whether you believe in the rules. Do you believe people from other countries are fundamentally different to you? Are they less because of where they come from? If so, yes, racist. If not, then probably not.

[-] Jhuskindle@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Yes because this is all land stolen by illegals. Assuming you're in North America. Canada and United States both literally illegally migrated here. No excuse or logic that would make sense that others shouldnt do the same. The end.

[-] TheAlbatross 9 points 4 weeks ago

Often people who oppose illegal immigration do seem to also be racists.

I think if someone says they oppose illegal immigration and also genuinely feels they have done serious introspection and feel they are not racist, they might benefit from asking themselves what they dislike about illegal immigration and see if those things actually have the negative impacts they fear or if the negative impacts they see are but drops in the bucket compared to other sources of similar impacts.

[-] weaponG@lemmy.world 8 points 4 weeks ago
[-] NONE_dc@lemmy.world 8 points 4 weeks ago

Not all opposed to illegal immigration are racist, but (obviously) all racist are against illegal immigration (And immigration in general).

[-] Ibaudia@lemmy.world 7 points 3 weeks ago

It's not racist to take issur with illegal immigration.

It's just not right to oppose the immigrants as people, or say that their situation is the result of some moral failing. These people make the best decisions for themselves and their families.

It becomes racist when you start attributing characteristics or behaviors to their race as fundamental attributes.

[-] ieGod@lemmy.zip 7 points 3 weeks ago

Maybe. Depends. It's complicated.

[-] Pika@rekabu.ru 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

There could be many reasons to be opposed to it, not necessarily racist ones.

You can support the rule of law - that's not racist. You may want to support legal immigration, while closing illegal ways that commonly lead to abuse of migrants - this is straight up progressive. You may consider illegal immigrants more dangerous as they didn't go through screening procedures - that's up for debate, but not necessarily racist, etc. And generally, if you consider that same rules should apply to everyone, this is not racist.

However, it's worth considering the laws of your area and the way they can affect legal migration. Going against illegal immigration and at the same time voting to complicate legal one, especially in relation to certain nationals, likely signals of racism (or, rather, ultranationalism). It is one thing to want to make the process transparent and legal and the other - to build more barriers.

[-] ethaver@kbin.earth 7 points 4 weeks ago

I worry a lot of it is human trafficking or at least human trafficking lite. A lot of employers really like having employees they don't actually have to pay properly or obey workplace safety and other protections for, and who will be afraid to speak up about fraud and other illegal practices.

But to me that would be easily solved if we only made it illegal to hire people without a permit, but never deport or otherwise penalize the workers. And publicize that heavily. So if you don't have a permit and your boss is abusing you, just call the hotline on the billboard and let us know and we'll arrest them and you can go find another sketchy employer and tell on them too when they piss you off.

No one would be hiring people without permits if there were actual consequences for the employer. We wouldn't be stuck with trying to figure out how to deport people and whatnot. They'd only be able to hire people the law is already protecting as workers. but nobody actually wants to hold rich people accountable for having caused all this trouble in the first place.

[-] commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 3 weeks ago
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