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submitted 1 day ago by Sunshine@lemmy.ca to c/transgender
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[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 13 points 1 day ago

Correct me if I'm wrong or sound bigoted, but this seems like an inclusive solution. It respects preferred gender, treats participants as equals during the event, doesn't need to bring hormones into the discussion at all, while still addressing TERF-y arguments about supposed fairness.

Transgender and cisgender women can compete at the same event geared for all women, and each athlete is treated the same throughout the competition, until the results. The only change being simply having separate rankings and sharing the podium: the top transgender and cisgender women can both take 1st place, if organizers judge that having been AMAB is a physical advantage for that sport.

[-] hildegarde 21 points 1 day ago

On multiple occasions the bigots searched the London marathon's unranked noncompetitive division specifically to find trans women to try and bully out of the sport. That's not what anyone would do when concerned about fairness.

Any claimed concern about fairness is a smoke screen for their real goal of making trans people not exist.

You cannot appease them by changing how things are ranked. You cannot appease them by banning trans athletes outright. They won't stop at sports. Any appeasement in sports will just let them focus fully on the next right they're trying to eliminate.

Trans women are at a disadvantage in most sports, if they've been on HRT long enough. Appeasement is an admission that the bigots are right, but they aren't. You have to fight the bigots on every front.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

No matter what you do, bigots will go out of their way to find people they don't like to harass, no matter how small the percentage is.

Another reply suggested all genders (cis and trans men and women and nonbinary) compete together, and/or removing rankings altogether, each person just decides how well they feel they did in the context of all runners. Do we really want to twist ourselves in a knot and make it harder for anyone but cis-men to have the highest scores, just for the appearance that we aren't appeasing TERFs? Many people are interested in being competitive in sports, so deliberately sidestepping the wedge issue without proper solutions doesn't seem tenable to me.

My suggestion was to keep a women's leaderboard, then slot every trans and non-binary person that competes there as tied with the closest cis-female competitor they scored with.

[-] eupraxia 4 points 1 day ago

if organizers judge that having been AMAB is a physical advantage for that sport.

Good idea in theory, pretty unfair in practice. Think about the "physical advantages" that we already accept in elite sports - Michael Phelps, for instance, obviously is an impressive athlete but also has some obvious genetic physical advantages. Think of the shortest man you know and the tallest man you know - are they automatically on an even playing field in basketball because they're both men? Don't we kind of just look past that kind of physical advantage?

My experience in fencing/HEMA is that height is the greatest physical advantage, far beyond AGAB. It's a pretty obvious advantage - more height generally means more reach which means you can hit an opponent before they can hit you. So practice tends to be co-ed, if people are paired off to make equal matches there's a tendency toward equal-height matchups. Then, when we go to compete, there's gender divisions for very little practical reason.

The ultimate issue is that AGAB alone is not a great indicator of athletic performance. "Physical advantages" exist even among cis athletes and trans athletes really only call attention to a problem that exists in elite sports anyway. It's also worth saying that sports science isn't a solved field and we're just now coming around to a better understanding of fascia and just how important it is to movement. Fascia is extremely responsive to hormonal changes and with time will more closely reflect a trans person's hormonal composition than their AGAB.

These sorts of advantages maybe matter in elite competitions, and I am willing to accept that AGAB isn't meaningless when discussing physical advantages, but at an amateur level (where the vast majority of athletes are at) it's a lot less relevant. But unfortunately, our amateur sports mimic elite sports and if elite sports buy into the idea that trans people are just inherently physically different to the extent that they cannot compete in the same way, alongside others' genetic physical advantages, then amateur sports take that attitude too and suddenly you get people pushing for genital inspections in kids' sports.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 day ago

Thanks for the nuanced response.

I agree, at lower levels physiological differences really should matter a lot less, and there ought to be considerations for each sport that we should think, beyond gender being the boundary. In a sense other types of categories do exist already: e.g. Kid's hockey separated by age (despite their growth spurt being super variable), wrestling by weight etc. The issue as you rightly point out is that a certain section of amateur and junior leagues want to take themselves as seriously as their elite counterparts when there's no self-evident need to do that.

[-] eupraxia 2 points 1 day ago

Yeah, amateur sports mimicking elite sports is a big part of this issue and a microcosm of another issue with exercise culture at large. We're more sedentary than ever, but when we go to the gym or train for a sport, we mimic what elite athletes do, which isn't very appropriate for beginners. An example might be doing a lot of strength building in isolation without bringing it together into broader multi-joint movements, which results in poor motor control.

but anyway I digress. This really all should just be a hell of a lot less serious for the vast majority of us and gendered divisions in amateur sports is another arm of that problem imo.

[-] knightly@pawb.social 15 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The reason that this sounds like a bigoted solution is that there aren't enough trans athletes in the country for a league of our own to have actual competition, and just doing the awards separately obviously isn't enough since the bigots are still complaining that we are allowed to participate in sports at all.

Equality will always feel like oppression to those who benefit from inequality, and there's no liberal workaround solution to the objections from the haters because their claims about "fairness in sports" are insincere. If the point of the divide between genders is to make space for women in sports, then excluding some women because of personal characteristics out of their control is unfair. And if the argument is about some (real or imagined) performance difference between cis and trans athletes, then the fair thing would be to set up ranked leagues so that everyone can compete with people near their own level of ability.

Sports are about friendly competition, healthy opportunities to better ourselves by testing our bodies and our skills against our peers. The right thing to do here is pretty obvious, the problem is that there are people who don't want to accept trans folks as a valid part of society and we won't be fixing that by fiddling in the margins of sports rulebooks.

[-] Rentlar@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Fair points, but the reason why I'm in this discussion to begin with, is that I'm trying to be a better ally and the right thing to do is not obvious to me, sorry.

I guess my trouble stems from whether sports should focus on gender equity or equality, not about whether trans people should be able to participate or not (I firmly believe they should).

I accept trans folks and they belong in society and sports just like any other person. However, simply ignoring a wedge issue pushed by TERFs without ideas on making things not just equal but equitable to all genders, doesn't seem tenable to me either.

[-] knightly@pawb.social 7 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

No need to apologize, you're trying to learn and that's already miles better than a lot of folks.

I think the core issue of fairness is actually sort of irrelevant since the answer is both obvious and politically intractable. The actual issue is access to professional sports and whether pro sports teams/venues believe that having trans people on the field will affect their profits, because they are the ones with the power to shift or preserve the status quo.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

The simplest solution is stop gendering individual competition. Run everyone together and sort the results by gender later if that's your prerogative.

[-] egrets@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

sort the results by gender later if that's your prerogative

Doesn't this still result in the same issue, though? If cis men tend to sprint faster (for example) because of an inherent physiological advantage, there's a need to rank women's results separately regardless of whether they ran alongside, and at that point you still have to decide whether you include trans women in that group, rank trans women (or all trans competitors) in their own grouping, or exclude them from grouping, and all of these feel unfair in one way or another.

[-] Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 day ago

Sports are inherently unfair, always were. Nobody has any control over their genetics, having a longer stride or bigger lungs or a faster metabolism are advantages that can be difficult to overcome and vary widely even among people with the same assigned birth gender/sex. Especially in regard to kids & teens sports, most people can remember at least one kid in school who hit their growth spurt early and dominated at a variety of physical activities as a result. The simplest answer is to separate by height & weight instead of gender, it might not be perfect but it would be a hell of a lot closer than what we've been doing.

[-] Madison420@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

No. if there's no body to decide it then it's your own choice and bigots are just going to do their bigoted shit you just wouldn't need to care about it at all.

[-] baguettefish@discuss.tchncs.de 5 points 1 day ago

I don't think being American at birth is an advantage anywhere

this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2025
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