What would you do if you felt you were being asked to do something unethical at work? (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) by DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world

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I work for a small company, in the United States. Part of my duties is building out quotes for products and services our company sells. I'm trying to avoid being overly specific, but basically I have been asked to quote out a product we often sell, but to also include in the quote a feature which out company cannot actually provide. The customer has several of the item I am supposed to quote already and believes that they have the additional feature on all of the existing devices, so expects to see it on this quote for their new site.

I have brought up with my boss in the past that we have not implemented the additional feature and to the best of my knowledge we can't. He assured me he was looking at addressing that. Today, after receiving the request for this new quote, I asked my boss about it, he said he still hasn't come up with a plan to address the issue, but wants me to move forward with pricing it out anyway.

It would be a big hit to our company if the customer left us, but I struggle to see how what my company is doing here isn't fraud. I'm not really comfortable with doing this, but my relationship with management is already strained and I wasn't really looking to create any more waves at the moment.

Are there good resources I could look to to determine if this would constitute fraud from a legal perspective? Has anyone here ever been in a similar situation?

I'm looking for another job, but don't have anything lined up yet, so nervous about doing (or not doing) something that would get me fired, but Im not comfortable with what appears to me to be dishonest at best and fraudulent at worst.

Edit: wanted to add that to the best of my knowledge, we aren't selling that additional feature to anyone else at the moment. I think my boss is just afraid of this customer in particular finding out since they've already been sold the feature and they're a larger customer.

Edit 2: thanks everyone for the advice. It is much appreciated. I've got a lot of thinking to do tonight.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 6 hours ago

Refuse. I've done so multiple times. They were very small things, not job-ending / company-boycotting things. Like setting someone's auto-reply when they took time off. I asked their supervisor to write it for me and pasted it in.

[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 4 points 7 hours ago

Them him/her I have to think about it for a bit, and then take a recorder in my pocket when "revisiting" the conversation.

[-] Randomgal@lemmy.ca 2 points 10 hours ago

No. Sorry. Next time you ask, can you put it on an email please?

[-] Goretantath@lemm.ee 8 points 17 hours ago

I always am of the belief that every employee of a company is complicit in its wrongdoings if they continue to work there knowingly. Companies can't opperate without employees so the best way to make changes in them is for the workers to quit. Thats why i hate it when people defend customer service employees when their job is litterally to be the front face of the company towards its consumers.

[-] Treczoks@lemmy.world 5 points 17 hours ago

One of our former bosses asked me to sign something clearly illegal. I told him NO. I am still here, the boss is a former boss.

[-] thermal_shock@lemmy.world 11 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

I wish mine was that simple. I was asked to install our RMM (backdoor remote access tool) on a partners home personal computer. I said I didn't feel comfortable doing this without her knowledge and without good reason. Wrote up a long email with explanation after I was told to do it anyway. The reply I got from the email was "you don't get to make that decision, you're going to get a bad review this year, do what you're told."

Luckily it took me about 2 weeks to find another job, and fully disclosed why I was leaving. Emailed everything to HR and left without warning, even told the partner their plan.

Left them scathing reviews on all platforms, HR even reached out about my reviews. Said "you didn't care then, what's changed"

A side quest of my life is to keep their reviews around 2.5 forever. I've got a dozen fake accounts to help already. Fuck them.

[-] Vandals_handle@lemmy.world 14 points 22 hours ago

If going to push back don't make it personal, that you are uncomfortable doing this. Change the focus to concern it would be putting the organization at risk of liability if we can't provide the good or service. Potential to damage the relationship with an important customer and reduce revenue. CYA with documentation and good luck on the job search.

[-] MoreFPSmorebetter@lemmy.zip 70 points 1 day ago

Keep the receipts. Get written proof that your boss wanted you to push forward. If they lose the client you can use those to prove you tried to warn them.

Cover your own ass first.

[-] DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world 16 points 1 day ago

Good advice. I did start bcc'ing my personal email when talking about this.

[-] libra00@lemmy.world 24 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Do yourself and go dig up the send receipts from the emails you've already sent on the subject, because if it comes down to it the company will not hesitate to delete them to try to get rid of the evidence. Email them to your private account or print them out and take them home, keep off-site records that aren't attached to their network.

I'm a former cybersecurity professional who has done penetration testing for companies where it turned out the left hand didn't know what the right hand was doing and we almost got seriously fucked (as in criminal charges pressed) because the guy who hired us and gave us the OK to hit their systems did not have clearance from his boss and tried to delete emails to cover his ass. Never trust someone who might have a vested interest in screwing you with the ability to do so.

[-] bamboo 5 points 1 day ago

tried to delete emails to cover his ass

didn't they get the email about not taking down the webserver

[-] libra00@lemmy.world 3 points 22 hours ago

lawl. Kinda reminds me of the front fell off

[-] TehBamski@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago

classic

[-] Devmapall@lemm.ee 4 points 1 day ago

Those videos are still hilarious years later

[-] bamboo 11 points 1 day ago

FYI, your employer will probably see these outgoing emails from your mailbox, it will turn up in logs and be very obvious for someone in IT who you don't even know if they see emails going to a random gmail address. You probably signed something when you were hired about not doing this, and it might create an IT issue for you. Also, since it's a bcc, your boss's replies won't be there, so it probably won't do you as much good as you think in proving they told you so. I would not recommend doing this.

Depending on how much control they can see into your work laptop, i would recommend printing the email threads as PDFs and copying them to a thumb drive if you need them. This would be harder to detect, but if your laptop is managed by the org, and someone does have it out for you, they could be watching your every movement, so it isn't 100% safe.

If you think you are being closely monitored, I guess your best course of action would be to get an HDMI capture device on a personal computer, and then record your monitor as you're viewing the emails.

[-] GuyFawkes@midwest.social 5 points 1 day ago

Far more likely they’ll detect the foreign hardware plugged in to the device (assuming it allows new devices to be added at all) than someone in IT randomly coming across some sent emails - could’ve been to a client for all they know.

However, if someone is suspicious and ASKS IT to pull the logs it should be pretty easy to see. But if it’s gotten to that point, you’re still better off having the emails than not.

[-] bamboo 1 points 21 hours ago

I guess it depends on the company and their policies. I've been an admin in Google Workspace, and it's almost hard to avoid seeing some of the reports of the metadata of external incoming and outgoing email.

I remember we even had a rule for external emails with a name that employee name. This was mostly to identify and block scammers impersonating the CEO, but would also inadvertently catch a whole bunch of other weird stuff people were doing as well, but that was mostly someone setting up a shadow IT service that would send email with the name of an employee, which we'd then have to chase and figure out.

I'm less familiar with the MDM software running on laptops, it's possible that each file copied to a thumb drive is logged, so that is totally a risk, but i imagine it would be harder to detect if that's a common thing that people do at the org.

[-] sem 3 points 1 day ago

Don't they monitor what you copy to thumb drives?

[-] bamboo 3 points 1 day ago

Yeah, that could depend on the level of monitoring and access they have, and what your risk level is. Since they say it's a small company, the laptops might not be managed, but almost certainly they will have reports on incoming and outgoing emails, and a bcc to a gmail address would be a huge red flag. I would assume that small PDF files copied to a thumb drive wouldn't raise suspicion, but you'd want to fly under the radar and not have the number of files be crazy or the file size be huge, since that would move you to the top of the list in an aggregated report, and have more eyes on you.

[-] Crazyslinkz@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

CYA = cover your ass

Always.

[-] heavydust@sh.itjust.works 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It happened to me and I refused in an internal email with a lot of people in CC (the CEO was included). I politely explained why it was very illegal and why I wouldn't do it. They stopped asking me because "they knew that I knew that they knew."

If it's the same kind of company, you would say yes, the client would discover the lie, and your company would fire you in less than a few minutes. You usually don't last long in that kind of environment.

[-] sik0fewl@lemmy.ca 4 points 22 hours ago

I think your best bet is to find a new employer. Definitely keep CYA documents as needed in the meantime, though.

[-] bane_killgrind@slrpnk.net 2 points 22 hours ago

Tell them to fuck off, like I did a couple months ago.

Or tell them, you can go tell the customer they have a credit, because they made a mistake on the PO, or I will. Like I said a while ago.

Same job been there 6 years.

Ask your customer when they need it implemented by, because you don't have a timeline for it. Is this a software feature that can be added to the existing devices? Send the quote, set realistic expectations.

If you fall on a sword for your customer, they might have a place for you while you look for something permanent. Or a reference for something good.

[-] helpImTrappedOnline@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

Time to update the resume.

If you're already on shaky terms, this mess could be pinned on you and you'll be out the door before you get a chance to pull up the paper trail leading to your boss.

In a less drop everything and run scenario, Is this feature a physical add-on or something done via software. Could always dig the hole deeper to stall for time and say parts are on backorder or someone key to implementing the feature is on sudden bereavement leave.

[-] guy@piefed.social 5 points 1 day ago

Isn't charging for something you don't provide while saying you do fraud?

[-] bamboo 2 points 21 hours ago

Idk, I pay my health insurance premiums and then get my coverage denied and have to fight for what I paid for, is that fraud?

[-] palordrolap@fedia.io 3 points 1 day ago

If the pricing is itemised, you could price the impossible feature at an exorbitant rate.

Either way, has your company previously sold this feature or is this just a mistaken belief about the existence of the feature that the customer has somehow invented themselves?

If the feature isn't on any of the customer's previous itemisations and they're the ones who made it up accidentally, suddenly seeing it on a new itemisation with a sky-high price tag might make them realise without explicitly telling them, which may or may not be what you (as the individual) want. I assume your boss will get wind of this one way or the other, so you could get them on-side by suggesting this idea.

Is this feature something one of your company's rivals might be able to implement or is this one of those situations where the feature would literally break the laws of physics? (Or mathematics, etc.) If the latter, it might be easier to come clean to the customer with a full explanation. If the former, your company needs to get on R&D immediately. Consult experts in the field. And that's where the exorbitant rate comes in.

How much of this your company shares with the customer is down to your chain of command. How much you share with the customer is down to how much it will affect you personally one way or the other.

Lots of ifs, buts and maybes here. Good luck. I think you need it.

[-] ultranaut@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

If I'm understanding correctly, you've not been selling the customer the additional feature but they think you have been and now your boss wants you to actually start billing them for the feature that they mistakenly think they are getting already but without actually providing the feature to them? Assuming that is correct it really does sound like fraud. Generally you can't knowingly sell something you aren't capable of selling but still collect the money. Even if the victim mistakenly thinks they got what they paid for you are still defrauding them of the money. I'm not a lawyer but I think if you do this you may end up needing a lawyer. Is there anyone else in the company besides your boss that you could talk to about this? The more people know about what is going on the harder it will be for your boss to pull of whatever he is trying to pull off. If something like this was going on where I work I would be documenting everything and sharing it with whoever would look at it, starting with my bosses boss. I wouldn't make any accusations though, just present the facts and express your concerns.

[-] MagicShel@lemmy.zip 4 points 1 day ago

How are you supposed to quote a service or project that you don't have any experience or pricing information for? I would suggest it's on your boss to deliver what he told you to include and not on you unless you know he has no intention to provide what is offered. Also, including something that doesn't get delivered might allow the customer to withdraw or renegotiate the contract.

Obviously you don't want to do something unethical, but I guess I'd just say to think carefully about what is really your responsibility and what isn't.

[-] DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

They decided that theyll just tell me what needs to go on the quotes and what price to set it at and then I do that. Most of the things I price out have prices defined for them already. I'm really just a dumb middle man in this process.

The fact that the customer might withdrawal I think is why he's afraid to just be upfront with them on it.

I'd just say to think carefully about what is really your responsibility and what isn't.

That seems fair, and is more or less the position my coworker took...still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[-] MagicShel@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 day ago

I respect your ethical take. But my respect doesn't put food on your table. Do what you have to do to sleep at night, and maybe that's an ethical decision or maybe it's just knowing you sleep better with a roof over your head.

If you consider yourself a highly ethical person, I wouldn't be in sales of I were you. It's hard to find really successful salesmen without a lot of gray area in their ethics.

But at the end is the day, you probably can't know that your boss won't find a way to deliver. Anyway good luck. Sounds like a difficult position to be in.

[-] LaoisheFu@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

Do whta you can with the quote and ask the boss to finalize the parts where you are unsure and make sure you paper trailer the whole lot and make it explicitly clear why you are handing it over.

[-] Limonene@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Tell the truth, and quote the customer without that feature. Make it clear that that feature doesn't exist, and your company can't make it, and your supplier isn't interested in working on it.

Your boss had time to sort this out, and failed. He asked you to move forward as if it was solved, which means lying. Instead, tell the truth.

You could run it by your boss before sending it to the customer, but don't let him insert any bad-faith statements if you're the one signing the quote.

[-] DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

I am leaning towards just pushing back on this and forcing my boss to explain how it is not fraud. Thankfully, my name is rarely attached to the quotes. I just build them, but it's the sales rep name that goes on it.

I appreciate your input!

[-] bleistift2@sopuli.xyz 6 points 1 day ago

Thankfully, my name is rarely attached to the quotes. I just build them, but it’s the sales rep name that goes on it.

Don’t trust what you see. In my company, every change ever made on any business entity gets logged with date and author name.

[-] towerful@programming.dev 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Not a lawyer.
But how to "cover your ass".

If pressured to still send a quote with it included, ask your manager to email over the details - ie get it in writing.
You are looking for them to tell you to include this unprovidable service in the quote as part of the details/instructions.
IE your manager to tell you to do the unethical thing in writing.
And respond back along the lines of "as discussed, we can't provide this service and can't procure it from the upstream provider. However I will do as instructed and email the quote to the customer with this service included".
This is indicating that you have discussed it (ideally save any other emails about this subject).
If your boss emails back "we haven't discussed this", then raise the issue in writing and don't send the quote until it is resolved by email (if your boss talks to you in person, feel free to send a "follow up" email outlining what you discussed and ask for clarification).
If your boss emails back "do as you are told", then do as you are told.
Save all the emails.

BCC to a personal account will be seen in server logs. Better to export backups or take screenshots and put them on a USB. Or ZIP them with a password and find a way to exfil them without raising red flags if USB devices are restricted. There are many ways to do this, I'm sure I can suggest some.

Generally, working under instruction where your pushback might lead to termination generally results in unfair dismissal and settlements.
Especially if you can prove that you have raised the issue, and still been told to proceed.

It doesn't sound like this is a risk-to-life or risk-to-public scenario, so I don't think "whistle blower" procedures are needed.

[-] WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 day ago

Can this additional part be obtained from a third party?

[-] DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

I think only if they went directly to the vendor we're partnered with for the product, but Im pretty sure that vendor requires customers to go through a partner like us.

[-] WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 day ago

Ok, I really can't understand the dynamics of this arrangement. Not with the info provided.

So you don't actually build this product or service, you're just a middle man? Why not just have the vendor include the missing piece?

I think crucial details are being lost in the vagaries.

[-] DumpsterFireHottub@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

Sorry. We configure the devices and provide ongoing support for them. To my understanding, the vendor doesn't even sell the extra feature any more. I think they've replaced it with something else. But I think the short answer to your question is that there would be no way to have the vendor implement the feature without the customer knowing and that would lead the customer to find out they didn't have it in the first place.

[-] helpImTrappedOnline@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Well there's your ticket out "we're sorry the manufacture has discontinued this feature, here's a new solution".

Also its 100% better if the clients finds out the feature is missing via your company. A good company will make it right, ideally by adding the feature retroactively at no cost. If it can't be added, open the checkbooks and refund the difference or find a new solution at a reduced cost (quote the new stuff, but not the replacements).

Sounds like it's above your paygrade, if the company loses the client that's not on you (even though they can still blame you)

this post was submitted on 01 Apr 2025

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