I still have no idea how Lemmy really works, and I had to sign up for this instance - I don’t know, I don’t see a platform growing on that. But maybe that’s the point. I’m trying to engage though! The Voyager app’s “import sub” feature from Reddit is brilliant.
Welcome here! Feel free if you have any questions
Custom feeds grouping similar communities
That was addressed in the article under Proposal 2:
it's a feature not many people made use of, and it sounds like a pain to have to constantly create and manage new multi-communities to group together duplicate communities. This shouldn't be a task that users have to manually do.
Personally I think proposal 2 and 3 should happen concurrently. Using the example in the post I would setup a custom feed (that can hopefully consolidate cross posts) for breakfast. I would put pancakes@a.com which subscribes to pancakemasters@b.com I can also add pancakeart@a.com and waffles@a.com. so when someone posts about the best homemade peanut butter syrup recipe that is cross posted to my pancake and waffle communities, I don't get 4 posts about it, I can see it once and choose where to reply (pancakes obviously, I'm a waffle purist).
Community interlinking/subscription fixes a slightly different problem than custom feeds IMO. It's a really good idea, but I would personally still want custom feeds (with the ability to handle crossposts in a customizable way).
Duplicates are a minor issue. That said, solution #2 (multi-comms) is considerably better than #3 (comms following comms).
The problems with #3 are:
- Topics are almost never as discrete as the author pretends them to be. Often they overlap, but only partially.
- Different comms have different rules, and in this situation rule enforcement becomes a mess.
There's no good solution for that. On the other hand, the problems the author associates with #2 are easy to solve, if users are allowed to share their multi-comms with each other as links:
- a new user might not know which comms to follow, but they can simply copy a multi-comm from someone who does
- good multi-comms are organically shared by users back and forth
Additionally, multi-comms address the root issue. The root issue is not that you got duplicate communities; it's that communities in general, even without duplicates, are hard to discover. Also note that the root issue is not exclusive to federated platforms, it pops up in Reddit too; it's a consequence of users being able to create comms by themselves.
About #1 (merging communities): to a certain extent users already do this. Nothing stops you from locking [!pancakes@a.com](/c/pancakes@a.com)
with a pinned thread like "go to [!pancakes@b.com](/c/pancakes@b.com)
".
This is a minor part of the text, but I feel in the mood to address it:
I post once to gauge interest then never post again because I got choice paralysis
The same users who get "choice paralysis" from deciding where to post are, typically, the ones who: can't be arsed to check rules before posting, can't be arsed to understand what someone else said before screeching, comment idiotic single-liners that add nothing but noise, whine "wah, TL;DR!" at anything with 100+ chars... because all those things backtrack to the same mindset: "thinking is too hard lol. I'm entitled to speak my empty mind, without thinking if I'm contributing or not lmao."
Is this really the sort of new user that we old users want to welcome here? Growth is important, but unrestricted growth regardless of cost is cancer.
Topics are almost never as discrete as the author pretends them to be. Often they overlap, but only partially.
Maybe I am not fully understanding your point here but from my point of view this is just not true?
A lot of the traffic is going to be on very general topics like "memes" or "technology" where posts are going to fit pretty much every other similar community.
Plus, in this case whoever has the authorities to follow communities can decide if the posts fit, so you're not losing anything if posts from a more specific community like "wholesome memes" end up showing up in a more general "memes" community.
That said, solution #2 (multi-comms) is considerably better than #3 (comms following comms).
the problems the author associates with #2 are easy to solve, if users are allowed to share their multi-comms with each other as links
Additionally, multi-comms address the root issue. The root issue is not that you got duplicate communities; it’s that communities in general, even without duplicates, are hard to discover.
I respectfully disagree. In two minutes, I can easily find all the communities on a given topic and subscribe to them all. The problem is not discovery. The problem is fragmentation of the user base, as explained by popcar in their blog post:
Alright, time to post. But where?
pancakes@a.com
andpancakes@c.com
are both somewhat active... Should I post ina
and crosspost toc
? Maybe there's hope in other communities kicking off again, should I crosspost tob
andd
as well? Oh no, am I going to post 4 times just to find my fellow pancake lovers?!
Let me take this a bit further: After crossposting to all 4 pancake communities, I get three comments. One in
a
,b
, andd
. Each comment is in a separate post and none of them interact with each other unless the poster opens each crosspost separately.
I do not see how Proposal 2 (multi-communities) solves the issue of fragmentation of the user base, while Proposal 3 (communities following each other) solves this quite elegantly.
About #1 (merging communities): to a certain extent users already do this. Nothing stops you from locking
[!pancakes@a.com](/c/pancakes@a.com)
with a pinned thread like "go to[!pancakes@b.com](/c/pancakes@b.com)
".
If you aren't already the moderator of n-1
communities on a multitude of instances, there are some pretty significant challenges:
- Find all the communities on a given topic (easy)
- Convince people that consolidation is a good idea (difficult)
- Get people, many of whom are reluctant to see a community on their home instance locked, to decide on a which community to switch to (sometimes impossible)
- Contact the moderators (or the admins, if the mods are inactive) of each of the
n-1
communities and get them to lock each community, with appropriate links to the decided upon community (tedious)
It's a right pain-in-the-ass to do properly, and I've had many more failures than I've had successes.
It’s a right pain-in-the-ass to do properly, and I’ve had many more failures than I’ve had successes.
Same experience here
The same users who get “choice paralysis” from deciding where to post are, typically, the ones who
I'm not so sure. I sometimes have choice paralysis again on a topic I'm not familiar with, and I'm sure quite a lot of other people do as well
I'm sure plenty exceptions exist - that's why I said "typically", it's that sort of generalisation that applies less to real individuals and more to an abstract "typical user".
@threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works , which is quite active as well, has a similar experience: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39248886/17090166
To me, choice paralysis happens to most of people, whatever their familiarity level with the platform. I would actually be worried if someone knew exactly where to post for any topic, because it would mean they probably just default to their home instance
I've personally developed my system as:
- If there are multiple communities, which is the most popular?
- If the most popular community is on a problematic instance, skip to the next most popular that is also on a good instance.
That takes away the paralysis, at least for me.
What do you do when there are two similarly active communities?
Hm, I can't recall encountering that yet, but I can see how that would be a harder one to decide. I suppose I might cycle between them.
!android@lemmy.world and !android@lemdro.id comes to mind
I try to avoid posting to .world if there's a viable alternative, personally, so I'd opt for lemdro.id consistantly. I do the same with the videos communities, where I've been trying to boost !videos@sopuli.xyz instead of posting to videos at .world.
But if it wasn't .world, the situation wouldn't be ideal, and I'd support combining the communities if the mods were down for it.
I've raised the issue to the LW mods a few months ago, they told me they were not interested in merging. The active mods being on the LW staff, it make sense.
That's unfortunate :(
I think it's fair to choose the smaller instance then, in the interest of diversification.
Indeed, but as long as other people still prefer the LW version both communities will continue to splinter the conversations
Post on the one with the most recent post.
Multicommunities are/grouping communities is being discussed in this issue atm:
Fully agree with solution three, federated communities is the way. Solution two is just dumb and is basically just the subbed feed
i literally just want it to work like it does on matrix: a room (community in this instance) is an independent thing that exists on all servers with users participating in it, and then each server can also assign aliases to the rooms (communities) like how we assign domain names to IP addresses, of which the room (community) admins can set one to be the main alias which is generally displayed in UIs.
so a community called "bagels stacked on dogs" could have aliases like #bagelsondogs:lemmy.chat, #bageldogs:lemmy.chat, #bagelsondogs:discuss.dogchat.com, #bagelson:dogs.net, etc etc and the community admins would of course want to set #bagelson:dogs.net to be the main way to reference the community.
I still think multi-communities would be a good feature, even if not for this particular problem. (For example, to a have a dedicated "music" feed that includes several communities for different music styles you are interested in.)
But if you sub to all of them then there is zero need for such a feed. It adds extra work of making the feed and having to select the feed. There is barely enough content for viewing subscribed my new, why split a post or two a day into a separate feed?
The issue of multiple communities is the same as reddit. Lemmy lacks the volume of users for the level of niches people are sometimes interested in. A post about pancakes does not need a specialized niche on a platform with limited total active users.
The regular daily users on Lemmy are likely not using subscription feeds very much if at all. Those that are less regular are likely using these features more, but they are far less likely to discover new communities.
In my opinion, there is a disconnect with people that expect Lemmy to mirror other platforms 1:1 or nearly. This perspective is lacking an understanding of the scale of the user base. Building hyper niche communities and expecting them to grow organically out of a vacuum is a fallacy. Communities must grow as branches of a tree where they are born out of a strong base community.
This is where bad moderation is a massive problem. We need loosely defined, liberally moderated, strong general communities first. These must have minimal rules and mostly passive moderation so that you know c/food is a safe place to post anything about your pancakes even if it is a pancake with tomato sauce, cheese, pineapple, and ham. You should know that c/food is a place where even your odd pancake will get some love and motivate you to share whatever heinous pastry topping atrocity you make in the asylum kitchen next week. /s
Bad mods that are overactive and largely narcissistic are in my opinion the largest problem on Lemmy. There is nothing hard about being a mod. The community does all of the real work of flagging issues because the community ultimately is all that matters. The rules are guidelines. Flags need to be handled with care and depth. Just because someone flags something that does not mean they are correct. I've flagged some stuff that was poorly explained and ineffective, where only admin could have seen what I was talking about. I've also seen a few where the person flagging is the underlying problem. There is certainly need to weed out bigots and I'm not for harming anyone. There are places where heavy moderation is important and needed, but that kind of mindset bleeds into the periphery too much here IMO.
As a user, I don't want authoritarian stupidity and narcissistic nonsense. I like having options for posting in other parallel communities when I see some community has a dozen pedantic rules. I will just post in the more obscure place that is not so narcissistic and anti community in the big picture perspective.
While I appreciate having those obscure options, I think it is a MAJOR fallacy to allow narcissistic mods to continue in any community but especially large and high participation communities. Mods do not matter. No one has ever made a post or comment because they checked who the mods are and used that information as a reason for posting or commenting. They post because of the way the place intuitively resonates, if it seems like a safe place, and because of the social democratic participation within the space. The only community that can be owned by a mod is the one where the mod is the only person that has ever posted. If you do not agree with this, you are ultimately a fascist authoritarian, whether you can see and acknowledge that is not my problem. Communities are a de facto democracy when multiple users post within them. The mod does not own these users, their posts, or the comments. The mod is only a custodian; a janitor. The mod comes last. The mod is a servant, not a leader. Anyone making forced posts is doing more harm than good. Some people are really great at finding good content and posting regularly. This role is not tied to the implications and responsibilities of being a mod. This convolution of participation and moderation is the primary issue at the largest scale of abstraction that goes unaddressed in the link aggregation platform format and remains outside of collective awareness. The convolution of the mod role in abstract, masks emotional investment and fixation of narcissists, and that leads to harmful actions towards well intentioned users and purging of any difference in opinion that evokes a negative emotion from an underlying authoritarian or egomaniacal person. The resultant actions cull true diversity of perspectives and conversational depth in an extremest like feedback loop. When users participate in good faith and receive mob like negativity, it is bad for Lemmy growth. However, when good faith participation results in mod actions it causes disenfranchisement on another level and often leads to short or long term migration off of the platform.
A moderator should have a better ethical foundation. We are all humans. We are all often wrong, or misunderstood. Still, in these instances, as a human you have a right to exist. We all have bad days or overreact with our emotions at times. Yet still, you have a right to exist. Some of us are compromised in various ways that may require a measure of empathy kindness and understanding that the average person in the community is not capable of understanding by default due to outlier circumstance. The person may be depressed, abused, in isolation, or neurodivergent in various ways. These are especially vulnerable to harm from a narcissistic mod. In some of these cases, disenfranchisement from negative interaction may directly contribute to real world harm and even death through indirect means. For this reason, all moderator actions MUST be considered harmful by default. Enforcing opinion, pedantism, and all unnecessary actions against a well intentioned user are reckless narcissism without the abstract big picture understanding of what is best for the real humans that the actions impact. Ignoring these potential edge cases is authoritarian incompetence and shows the person lacks the ethical foundation required to be fair and just, acting in the best interest of the community.
The issue of poor moderation through de facto authoritarianism grossly contradicting democratic participation of all users, is the primary issue of all link aggregators that goes unaddressed.
The biggest issue for Lemmy at the moment is instances that do not update to the latest version of Lemmy. If devs are hamstrung from fixing issues in new revisions, the entire platform and discussion of growth is mute. When the largest instance on Lemmy (LW) is not on the latest version of Lemmy, or the devs fail to ensure the stability required, progress is halted and complaints are useless negativity with no potential for change.
I made a whole instance just for the dull community
I also mod !dull_mens_club@lemmy.world
I make content to help the communities grow, it's hard not to participate when you tend to check those communities frequently. I also try not to participate too much because I realize that it's not MY community. I'm more interested in the unique culture they develop. I have rarely had to take moderation actions, it's really not something I like doing. I never want to take adverse actions against someone because of what they do outside of the community. Of course all of that would be very undull and therefore go against the rules and principles of the communities.
You can post about pancakes in either one if you want, it would probably be a big hit.
Is that a long-winded way of saying pancakes are dull? :p
We can all go to iHop and drink coffe for 3 hours and talk about the difference between pancakes and flapjacks.
I am a (nearly) daily user and I use the subscription feed. I am subscribed to lots of communities and if I used the "all" feed, I'd miss some of the posts to what I am interested in. So IMO it makes no sense for me to use "all".
Fedigrow
To discuss how to grow and manage communities / magazines on Lemmy, Mbin, Piefed and Sublinks
Resources:
- https://lemmy-federate.com/ to federate your community to a lot of instances
- !fedibridge@lemmy.dbzer0.com to organize overall fediverse growth
- !reddit@lemmy.world to keep tabs on where new users might come from :)