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submitted 2 months ago by Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/fedigrow@lemm.ee
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[-] small44@lemmy.world 23 points 2 months ago

Custom feeds grouping similar communities

[-] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 7 points 2 months ago

That was addressed in the article under Proposal 2:

it's a feature not many people made use of, and it sounds like a pain to have to constantly create and manage new multi-communities to group together duplicate communities. This shouldn't be a task that users have to manually do.

[-] GorGor@startrek.website 6 points 2 months ago

Personally I think proposal 2 and 3 should happen concurrently. Using the example in the post I would setup a custom feed (that can hopefully consolidate cross posts) for breakfast. I would put pancakes@a.com which subscribes to pancakemasters@b.com I can also add pancakeart@a.com and waffles@a.com. so when someone posts about the best homemade peanut butter syrup recipe that is cross posted to my pancake and waffle communities, I don't get 4 posts about it, I can see it once and choose where to reply (pancakes obviously, I'm a waffle purist).

Community interlinking/subscription fixes a slightly different problem than custom feeds IMO. It's a really good idea, but I would personally still want custom feeds (with the ability to handle crossposts in a customizable way).

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[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 2 months ago

If they are similar, why not consolidate?

[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 8 points 2 months ago

Better to not have to start over 100% if the main community is on a server that randomly disappears forever or turns sour and gets defederated.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 months ago

There is no community backup for those ones, they seem to be doing fine:

Instance shutting down is indeed a valid risk, but it shouldn't be handled at the community level

[-] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I'm glad you've been lucky enough to not lose any of your favorite communities. The server (tchncs.de) my user is currently on is my 3rd Lemmy provider to date. The other two just evaporated and took the communities I modded for with them. Thankfully the one I cared about already had a dupe - which is still going strong.

Part of the point of a meta community system (that could serve to consolidate and solve your problem) is that then all communities would be divorced from their hosts. Then (as an example), if the UK government pulled an Apple with feddit.uk and feddit suddenly shuttered to avoid it, those communities would/could be grafted on to another server, intact.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago

I’m glad you’ve been lucky enough to not lose any of your favorite communities.

I've lost !moviesandtv@lemmy.film when the instance shut down. I still advocate for one community.

Should lemm.ee go down, I would recreate the community elsewhere and post on !communitypromo@lemmy.ca

I've rebuilt !moviesandtv@lemm.ee , now abandoned.

I've built !movies@lemm.ee. I can do it a fourth time.

[-] Pazintach@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

!europe@feddit.org and !dach@feddit.org was formerly on the now closed feddit.de I think. It took me sometime to find them again…

Edit: I think a better solution is for us to custom group similar communities.

[-] small44@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

Because each instance and community had it's own rules. With custom feeds user can choose with communities he want to consolidate and separate them again if he want

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[-] xye@lemm.ee 14 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I still have no idea how Lemmy really works, and I had to sign up for this instance - I don’t know, I don’t see a platform growing on that. But maybe that’s the point. I’m trying to engage though! The Voyager app’s “import sub” feature from Reddit is brilliant.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 points 2 months ago

Welcome here! Feel free if you have any questions

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 10 points 2 months ago

Duplicates are a minor issue. That said, solution #2 (multi-comms) is considerably better than #3 (comms following comms).

The problems with #3 are:

  • Topics are almost never as discrete as the author pretends them to be. Often they overlap, but only partially.
  • Different comms have different rules, and in this situation rule enforcement becomes a mess.

There's no good solution for that. On the other hand, the problems the author associates with #2 are easy to solve, if users are allowed to share their multi-comms with each other as links:

  • a new user might not know which comms to follow, but they can simply copy a multi-comm from someone who does
  • good multi-comms are organically shared by users back and forth

Additionally, multi-comms address the root issue. The root issue is not that you got duplicate communities; it's that communities in general, even without duplicates, are hard to discover. Also note that the root issue is not exclusive to federated platforms, it pops up in Reddit too; it's a consequence of users being able to create comms by themselves.

About #1 (merging communities): to a certain extent users already do this. Nothing stops you from locking [!pancakes@a.com](/c/pancakes@a.com) with a pinned thread like "go to [!pancakes@b.com](/c/pancakes@b.com)".


This is a minor part of the text, but I feel in the mood to address it:

I post once to gauge interest then never post again because I got choice paralysis

The same users who get "choice paralysis" from deciding where to post are, typically, the ones who: can't be arsed to check rules before posting, can't be arsed to understand what someone else said before screeching, comment idiotic single-liners that add nothing but noise, whine "wah, TL;DR!" at anything with 100+ chars... because all those things backtrack to the same mindset: "thinking is too hard lol. I'm entitled to speak my empty mind, without thinking if I'm contributing or not lmao."

Is this really the sort of new user that we old users want to welcome here? Growth is important, but unrestricted growth regardless of cost is cancer.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 2 months ago

The same users who get “choice paralysis” from deciding where to post are, typically, the ones who

I'm not so sure. I sometimes have choice paralysis again on a topic I'm not familiar with, and I'm sure quite a lot of other people do as well

[-] lvxferre@mander.xyz 4 points 2 months ago

I'm sure plenty exceptions exist - that's why I said "typically", it's that sort of generalisation that applies less to real individuals and more to an abstract "typical user".

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

@threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works , which is quite active as well, has a similar experience: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39248886/17090166

To me, choice paralysis happens to most of people, whatever their familiarity level with the platform. I would actually be worried if someone knew exactly where to post for any topic, because it would mean they probably just default to their home instance

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I've personally developed my system as:

  1. If there are multiple communities, which is the most popular?
  2. If the most popular community is on a problematic instance, skip to the next most popular that is also on a good instance.

That takes away the paralysis, at least for me.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 2 months ago

What do you do when there are two similarly active communities?

[-] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 4 points 2 months ago

Hm, I can't recall encountering that yet, but I can see how that would be a harder one to decide. I suppose I might cycle between them.

[-] ericjmorey@discuss.online 3 points 2 months ago

Post on the one with the most recent post.

[-] threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 3 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

That said, solution #2 (multi-comms) is considerably better than #3 (comms following comms).

the problems the author associates with #2 are easy to solve, if users are allowed to share their multi-comms with each other as links

Additionally, multi-comms address the root issue. The root issue is not that you got duplicate communities; it’s that communities in general, even without duplicates, are hard to discover.

I respectfully disagree. In two minutes, I can easily find all the communities on a given topic and subscribe to them all. The problem is not discovery. The problem is fragmentation of the user base, as explained by popcar in their blog post:

Alright, time to post. But where? pancakes@a.com and pancakes@c.com are both somewhat active... Should I post in a and crosspost to c? Maybe there's hope in other communities kicking off again, should I crosspost to b and d as well? Oh no, am I going to post 4 times just to find my fellow pancake lovers?!

Let me take this a bit further: After crossposting to all 4 pancake communities, I get three comments. One in a, b, and d. Each comment is in a separate post and none of them interact with each other unless the poster opens each crosspost separately.

I do not see how Proposal 2 (multi-communities) solves the issue of fragmentation of the user base, while Proposal 3 (communities following each other) solves this quite elegantly.

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[-] ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com 7 points 2 months ago

Fully agree with solution three, federated communities is the way. Solution two is just dumb and is basically just the subbed feed

[-] crimeschneck@feddit.nl 7 points 2 months ago

I still think multi-communities would be a good feature, even if not for this particular problem. (For example, to a have a dedicated "music" feed that includes several communities for different music styles you are interested in.)

[-] ocean@lemmy.selfhostcat.com 5 points 2 months ago

But if you sub to all of them then there is zero need for such a feed. It adds extra work of making the feed and having to select the feed. There is barely enough content for viewing subscribed my new, why split a post or two a day into a separate feed?

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[-] asudox@lemmy.asudox.dev 6 points 2 months ago

Multicommunities are/grouping communities is being discussed in this issue atm:

https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/818

[-] j4k3@lemmy.world 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

The issue of multiple communities is the same as reddit. Lemmy lacks the volume of users for the level of niches people are sometimes interested in. A post about pancakes does not need a specialized niche on a platform with limited total active users.

The regular daily users on Lemmy are likely not using subscription feeds very much if at all. Those that are less regular are likely using these features more, but they are far less likely to discover new communities.

In my opinion, there is a disconnect with people that expect Lemmy to mirror other platforms 1:1 or nearly. This perspective is lacking an understanding of the scale of the user base. Building hyper niche communities and expecting them to grow organically out of a vacuum is a fallacy. Communities must grow as branches of a tree where they are born out of a strong base community.

This is where bad moderation is a massive problem. We need loosely defined, liberally moderated, strong general communities first. These must have minimal rules and mostly passive moderation so that you know c/food is a safe place to post anything about your pancakes even if it is a pancake with tomato sauce, cheese, pineapple, and ham. You should know that c/food is a place where even your odd pancake will get some love and motivate you to share whatever heinous pastry topping atrocity you make in the asylum kitchen next week. /s

Bad mods that are overactive and largely narcissistic are in my opinion the largest problem on Lemmy. There is nothing hard about being a mod. The community does all of the real work of flagging issues because the community ultimately is all that matters. The rules are guidelines. Flags need to be handled with care and depth. Just because someone flags something that does not mean they are correct. I've flagged some stuff that was poorly explained and ineffective, where only admin could have seen what I was talking about. I've also seen a few where the person flagging is the underlying problem. There is certainly need to weed out bigots and I'm not for harming anyone. There are places where heavy moderation is important and needed, but that kind of mindset bleeds into the periphery too much here IMO.

As a user, I don't want authoritarian stupidity and narcissistic nonsense. I like having options for posting in other parallel communities when I see some community has a dozen pedantic rules. I will just post in the more obscure place that is not so narcissistic and anti community in the big picture perspective.

While I appreciate having those obscure options, I think it is a MAJOR fallacy to allow narcissistic mods to continue in any community but especially large and high participation communities. Mods do not matter. No one has ever made a post or comment because they checked who the mods are and used that information as a reason for posting or commenting. They post because of the way the place intuitively resonates, if it seems like a safe place, and because of the social democratic participation within the space. The only community that can be owned by a mod is the one where the mod is the only person that has ever posted. If you do not agree with this, you are ultimately a fascist authoritarian, whether you can see and acknowledge that is not my problem. Communities are a de facto democracy when multiple users post within them. The mod does not own these users, their posts, or the comments. The mod is only a custodian; a janitor. The mod comes last. The mod is a servant, not a leader. Anyone making forced posts is doing more harm than good. Some people are really great at finding good content and posting regularly. This role is not tied to the implications and responsibilities of being a mod. This convolution of participation and moderation is the primary issue at the largest scale of abstraction that goes unaddressed in the link aggregation platform format and remains outside of collective awareness. The convolution of the mod role in abstract, masks emotional investment and fixation of narcissists, and that leads to harmful actions towards well intentioned users and purging of any difference in opinion that evokes a negative emotion from an underlying authoritarian or egomaniacal person. The resultant actions cull true diversity of perspectives and conversational depth in an extremest like feedback loop. When users participate in good faith and receive mob like negativity, it is bad for Lemmy growth. However, when good faith participation results in mod actions it causes disenfranchisement on another level and often leads to short or long term migration off of the platform.

A moderator should have a better ethical foundation. We are all humans. We are all often wrong, or misunderstood. Still, in these instances, as a human you have a right to exist. We all have bad days or overreact with our emotions at times. Yet still, you have a right to exist. Some of us are compromised in various ways that may require a measure of empathy kindness and understanding that the average person in the community is not capable of understanding by default due to outlier circumstance. The person may be depressed, abused, in isolation, or neurodivergent in various ways. These are especially vulnerable to harm from a narcissistic mod. In some of these cases, disenfranchisement from negative interaction may directly contribute to real world harm and even death through indirect means. For this reason, all moderator actions MUST be considered harmful by default. Enforcing opinion, pedantism, and all unnecessary actions against a well intentioned user are reckless narcissism without the abstract big picture understanding of what is best for the real humans that the actions impact. Ignoring these potential edge cases is authoritarian incompetence and shows the person lacks the ethical foundation required to be fair and just, acting in the best interest of the community.

The issue of poor moderation through de facto authoritarianism grossly contradicting democratic participation of all users, is the primary issue of all link aggregators that goes unaddressed.

The biggest issue for Lemmy at the moment is instances that do not update to the latest version of Lemmy. If devs are hamstrung from fixing issues in new revisions, the entire platform and discussion of growth is mute. When the largest instance on Lemmy (LW) is not on the latest version of Lemmy, or the devs fail to ensure the stability required, progress is halted and complaints are useless negativity with no potential for change.

[-] PriorityMotif@lemmy.world 6 points 2 months ago

I made a whole instance just for the dull community

!dullsters@dullsters.net

I also mod !dull_mens_club@lemmy.world

I make content to help the communities grow, it's hard not to participate when you tend to check those communities frequently. I also try not to participate too much because I realize that it's not MY community. I'm more interested in the unique culture they develop. I have rarely had to take moderation actions, it's really not something I like doing. I never want to take adverse actions against someone because of what they do outside of the community. Of course all of that would be very undull and therefore go against the rules and principles of the communities.

You can post about pancakes in either one if you want, it would probably be a big hit.

[-] Ignot@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

Is that a long-winded way of saying pancakes are dull? :p

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[-] Microw@lemm.ee 5 points 2 months ago

I am a (nearly) daily user and I use the subscription feed. I am subscribed to lots of communities and if I used the "all" feed, I'd miss some of the posts to what I am interested in. So IMO it makes no sense for me to use "all".

[-] j4k3@lemmy.world 3 points 2 months ago

I'm on Lemmy off and on for hours a day. I see most posts using the "all" feed. Few people are in social isolation from physical disability with near infinite spare time or other circumstances that enable this. There are many times I wish Lemmy had more total volume of participation than the "all" feed. This is what I want to grow.

[-] Libb@jlai.lu 5 points 2 months ago

I quite agree with the issue described and I 100% agree it's a critical one but, because none of the proposed solution seem to be ideal, I'm also wondering if this doesn't end up saying the right model, right in the sense that it will work with/feel much more simpler to most users, is a centralized system and not a federated one?

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago

is a centralized system

So... Reddit? With the cancelled third-party apps, the visible ads, the ads hiding as posts, the powertripping mods (but unpaid as well), the algorithm trying to get the most "engagement" by showing hateful content?

[-] Libb@jlai.lu 4 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

So… Reddit?

I don't know, I just shared agut feeling while reading the OP. And I'm not saying it's what we should thrive for, just sharing that gut feeling about what, like I said, I consider a critical issue on Lemmy.

With the cancelled third-party apps, the visible ads, the ads hiding as posts, the powertripping mods (but unpaid as well), the algorithm trying to get the most “engagement” by showing hateful content?

That's a whole other discussion imho. But if you want to discuss about that:

  • I only talked about a centralized system (aka, a unified one) and, once again, I did not say it was the solution only that it felt like that while I was reading the post. As far as I know, centralization does not imply the obligation to rely on algorithm (and ads, paywalls, or nothing dirty like that).
  • As far as mods abusing their power is an issue (it is), I think we do have a few on Lemmy too. Isn't there a community dedicated to that issue?
  • Ditto for the 'hateful content' (and I would add the extremely low effort posts too), it was a pain on Reddit, it's a pain on Lemmy too there is just of it on Lemmy because there are less of us posting ;)
    I consider the Reddit default home page an insult to any half-working brain but I would not be much more sympathetic to Lemmy's default feed either. I remember we briefly discussed that already: I'd rather see an empty feed by default, with only a short-ish selection of very broad categories the user would pick from to start seeing content that they're interested in. And only that content, not all the crap. They would then be able to start fine tuning their selection. Something like that.
  • Reducing Reddit to what you listed here would be... unfair to the great content and great discussion one can easily find over there. As an ex-Reddit user, after an adaptation time (learning how to get rid of the default crap feed and how to remove the crap ads, learning what subs were better ignored) I had a great time using Reddit (and that is despite its poor UI). I did not quit using it because of the flow of hate or the flow of moronic content, nor because of abusive mods (quite the opposite, I appreciated their work... thx to fine selection of the few subs I was subscribed to). I did not quit reddit for that, no more than I would quit Lemmy for those flaws either. I left because I hated how Reddit, the corporation, took hold of our content and started restricting access to our content in order to negotiate deals with partners. And started talking about paywalling some of it. I briefly explained it as a last post on my Reddit profile and I close the door behind me. But I do miss those interesting discussions I had, and I miss a few subs too (r/Simpleliving, would be the first one I would mention).
    If I was not admitting I miss that I would be a liar.
  • I also find it difficult to motivate/encourage more people to join and participate here on Lemmy because I'm myself constantly faced with the 'messy' aspects of Lemmy. I'm stubborn and I decided I could live with them (happily) but I also know many people are not ok with that and it's unlikely they ever will.

Hence me agreeing with the OP: Lemmy being as fragmented as it is is a critical issue.
Hence, the second part of my comment: it feels to me that the only easy/obvious solution is to rely on a centralized system. I'm not saying it's what should be done (I would not be part of the fediverse if I had no desire to see an alternative to that centralization). I may be wrong in that, most probably I'm (I have no technical expertise) but it still is what I felt while reading the post. Nothing more.

And for the rest, let the downvoters enjoy their very own moment of power ;)

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[-] JohnnyEnzyme@lemm.ee 4 points 2 months ago

This was already touched on earlier, but I wanted to add on a bit:

The idea comes from how Reddit handles it (MultiReddits) but from my experience it's a feature not many people made use of, and it sounds like a pain to have to constantly create and manage new multi-communities to group together duplicate communities. This shouldn't be a task that users have to manually do.

This is a pretty bad or maybe just naive take that IMO doesn't sum things in a productive way upon Multi-Reddits. That is-- 1) it arguably doesn't matter a bit how many people make use of it, as each person's MR is going to be a custom affair, and it works at the individual user level anyway, 2) on the contrary, it's no trouble at all to build your MR's either quickly or painstakingly, and you can spread that effort across weeks, months and even years. In the end, I find MR's fantastically useful as super-custom feeds that you can use to stay focused on a tight range of topics.

Unfortunately, these kinds of half-baked conclusions tend to suggest to me that OP doesn't have a whole lot of familiarity with either platform at this time. That said, there's a lot of interesting ideas in the article, it's just a little disappointing in various places.

[-] gon@lemm.ee 3 points 2 months ago

I was actually thinking of something similar a few days ago. The conclusion I came to is "comms as users."

Communities being able to follow other communities is part of that. I think it'd be great.

[-] Blaze@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 2 months ago
[-] popcar2@programming.dev 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Oh hey, it's been a while since I've written this. Thanks for sharing it again. When I posted it last year to the fediverse community, people were not ready for it.

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this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2025
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