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submitted 1 year ago by shadysus@lemmy.ca to c/canada@lemmy.ca
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[-] SamuelRJankis@lemmy.world 40 points 1 year ago

As someone who believes:

A) Housing investors collectively have made incredibly large amounts of money at cost of other Canadians.

B) Essentially every single level of government has done little to aid in housing/infrastructure developments. If not outright block them.

C) Given the other 2 issues aren't dealt with immigration is the only thing that can completely pivot overnight but we've only increased it.

I think the biggest issues is that in the last election 80% of voters seemed to think more of the same was okay. To be clear I'm talking about the people who voted for a party who's housing minister said that investor is helping the situation or the party's leader said the same or people who couldn't even be bothered to vote.

[-] Sami@lemmy.zip 24 points 1 year ago

Canada's fertility rate hasn't been above the replacement rate in over 50 years and that is with immigration. It's currently at 1.4 (child per woman/family)

Nearly four-fifths of the 1.8 million population increase from 2016 to 2021 was attributable to new arrivals to Canada either as permanent or temporary immigrants

If you want to lower immigration rates, you're gonna need to increase birth rates unless you want to become the next Japan where the population is expected to halve within our lifetimes.

The issue is the supply of affordable housing, plain and simple, and there is no solution that does not involve the government intervening in the housing market in some form.

[-] frostbiker@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 year ago

If you want to lower immigration rates, you’re gonna need to increase birth rates

The opposite is also true: if you want to see higher birth rates then housing needs to be affordable. Most Canadians require some financial stability before they start a family, and that is difficult today with the sky high housing costs.

[-] EhForumUser@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

if you want to see higher birth rates then housing needs to be affordable.

Canada's birth rate has held stagnant for the last 50 years. No time in the last 50 years has housing been affordable? Hell, Toronto had a housing crash in the 1990s. And it still wasn't affordable right after that?

If your answer is no, it is likely that it is fundamentally impossible to make housing affordable. It ultimately uses up a lot of labour and resources, while removing food growing capability and damaging the climate, for no productive benefit. Good for the individual, but a terrible strain on society as a whole. The cost reflects that.

and that is difficult today

And for the last 50 years, it seems. Even if we can wave a magic wand at housing, how can we be sure that doesn't end up "I can't have kids, food is too expensive!" and then "I can't have kids, internet service is too expensive!"?

The reality is that life has never been affordable. The only thing that changed 50-some-odd years ago was the invention of the birth control pill. And the harsh reality is that life can never be affordable. There is not enough time in the day.

[-] FireRetardant@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

The number one reason young people tell me they do not want kids these days is because they cannot afford it. Perhaps if housing was more affordable and wages weren't stagnated it wouldn't be a privledge to raise a family these days.

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[-] SamuelRJankis@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

While I agree the answer to the issue is the solution. As I noted it doesn't seems like people agree on the issue.

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[-] bionicjoey@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago

Note also that the Liberals have basically stated that their immigration policy is intended to suppress wages. It's not about helping refugees, or about diversity, it's about class warfare.

[-] EhForumUser@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

the Liberals have basically stated that their immigration policy is intended to suppress wages.

Policy fail, then. With the exception of the height of COVID, wages have beat inflation since Trudeau took the Prime Ministership. Even the BoC has stepped in to try and stop it.

[-] ShaggySnacks@lemmy.myserv.one 3 points 1 year ago

There is no war but class war.

[-] jerkface@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah, the government is helping house Canadians the same way the government is helping Canadians enjoy a livable climate in the future.

[-] Tigbitties@kbin.social 35 points 1 year ago

50% of Airbnb in Toronto are hosted by entities of 10+ full homes. The average occupancy rate is 37 nights/year. How are we letting this happen?

[-] Cobrachickenwing@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago

Numbered corporations create annoymity for these Airbnb landlords to evade taxes and encourage mortgage fraud. force real name incorporation for real estate and cities can enact punishing tax rates for these illegal hotel operators.

[-] ILikeBoobies@lemmy.ca 5 points 1 year ago

Source? 50% seems really low

[-] Tigbitties@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

http://insideairbnb.com/toronto

It's interactive. I clicked on the "full homes" and only multi listings and the number was 8600/16000.

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[-] CorvusNyx@beehaw.org 29 points 1 year ago

You know what would go a long way? Make housing a shitty income source. Bring about heavy taxes on any additional livable property beyond the one you live in yourself. Ban all politicians from landlording - it’s a conflict of interest holding us all back. Ban corporations and foreign organizations from owning housing. You’d see a fire sale. Prices would plummet, and people who need housing would have a greater chance at it. Finally, get a fucking UBI going, and grow universal healthcare to include eye and dental care.

Enough is goddamn enough. We know who the problem is and it isn’t immigrants, it’s well-off folks taking and hoarding more than they need using their much larger disposable income and connections to take advantage of the rest of us.

There are solutions to making Canadian’s lives better, and they’ll take work and time to make happen, but this continuous pissing in the wind isn’t getting us anywhere. We can do this civilly with hard work, or we can get to a breaking point and do things like 1789 France. One way another, the bullshit has got to go.

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 6 points 1 year ago

There's just not enough houses, though. Measurably. Banning landlords would be bad news for anyone who can't afford a mortgage downpayment.

[-] BedSharkPal@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

Great news then. Banning landlords of non purpose built units, would drop prices!

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 4 points 1 year ago

Like former office space or whatever? That's not what OP said, but encouraging repurposing is an idea worth talking about.

[-] BedSharkPal@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

No, as in single family homes. If the building was expressly built with density in mind (think triplex and above) then it's fine IMO. This reduces the land scarcity side of the equation, as well as incentivizes density.

[-] EhForumUser@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Finally, get a fucking UBI going

We did have UBI going. It set inflation in motion, as the naysayers always said it would, and we had to reel back.

UBI doesn't have have to cause inflation, but implementation has to be careful to ensure that. You can't throw any random desk jockey at the job and expect sunshine and rainbows. Trouble is, those who have the right skills aren't interested in doing the work. We don't subscribe to slavery, so...

[-] tleb@lemmy.ca 19 points 1 year ago
[-] EhForumUser@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Technically GMI, but we've always conflated the two. The so-called UBI study Ontario tired to conduct a few years ago was also GMI, not UBI, if you look at the implementation details. There are subtle differences, to be sure, but they probably don't make much difference in practice. The conflation isn't the result of them being radically different.

Further, when you have unskilled people doing the work, as we do, it is likely they would be unaware of the difference. So what differences do exist, even where impactful, are ultimately immaterial in any practical sense. Call it UBI, GMI, GBI, MBI, or the many other names thrown out there, and you'll get the same response every time: "You what? Oh, you want to give people money? Okay. Umm. I don't know what that entails, but I'll think of something!"

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[-] jatone@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago

no it didn't. saying CERB caused inflation ignores hand waves everything else going on in the world economy.

[-] jerkface@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago

So CERB is the driver of inflation. Inflation that the entire world experienced. Holy fuck. Who knew Canada had so much economic power.

[-] steebo_jack@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago

Immigrants have always been the punching bag of long term residents...

[-] Templa@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago

People from r/Canada are so pathetic and predictable that they got pissed at the article and the thread about this has already been locked.

"Why would corporations hoard housing if it wasn't for immigration?" is the main argument they use, like corporations wouldn't be attempting to profit over a basic human need in any circumstances.

This pisses me off so much.

[-] jerkface@lemmy.ca 1 points 1 year ago

It's okay. It's over now. We're free. Let metacanada go. They can't hurt us anymore.

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Blaming corporations is a cop-out. Small "mom and pop" landlords are just as capable of gouging their fellow Canadians for profit. At least there are real-estate corporations that build stuff instead of being purely parasitic.

And at least the corps have to pay tax on their profits. Private owners who bought when things were cheap and are now multimillionaires got all that money effort-free and tax-free thanks to the principal residence exception.

[-] karlhungus@lemmy.ca 9 points 1 year ago

This stinks. I'm not a landlord, I do own my own house.

And at least the corps have to pay tax on their profits

I wish i payed 15%. I'm not even counting on the rebates they get for setting up shop places, or developing "doing research". Corporations quite often do not pay their fair share. Corporations do buy up swaths of real estate.

Private owners who bought when things were cheap and are now multimillionaires got all that money effort-free and tax-free thanks to the principal residence exception.

Almost nobody got their shit effort-free, you still have to go in with the bank and pay them a shit tonne of money. Principal residence only applies to first residence, and you still have to pay taxes on your residence (I know, because I pay them).

And here's some news for you: housing was always relatively expensive, people who bought gigantic mortgages took on a whole pile of risk, made the banks rich, and sometimes came out richer for it; that doesn't make them bad.

[-] ConfuzedAZ@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

How exactly do they get it tax free due to principle residence exemption?

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If you bought your house in 1986 for $60k, and then sold it in 2021 for a $million, and you lived in it for those 25 years as your principal residence, then that is tax-free.

Obviously this is less about landlords than just homeowners who are celebrating their good fortune, but still: blaming corporations is a cop-out.

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago

Corporations are 100% to blame for the rising prices. They are increasingly buying new and old homes (single family, apartments and condos).

According to the CHSP, more than a fifth of all houses in British Columbia, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Ontario were owned by investors in 2020. That is a fucking insane number considering the current crisis.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/46-28-0001/2023001/article/00001-eng.htm

That is not the only factor, but it is undeniably an issue in the ballooning price of rent and home value.

[-] Pxtl@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

According to the CHSP, more than a fifth of all houses in British Columbia, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Ontario were owned by investors in 2020. That is a fucking insane number considering the current crisis.

This does not necessarily mean they're being bought by corporations. Plenty of individual buyers are investors. And remember, investment properties go onto the market to get rented. If there was really a massive glut of investment properties being created, rents would be plummeting. Is that happening? Of course not. And houses are not only 20% too expensive. And if Toronto made 20% more housing would it solve the housing crisis, would it offset the damage done by "investors"? According to the CMHC, Toronto is only hitting half of its target for completions needed to put a dent in this. Mississauga is doing far worse (which is why I'm deeply skeptical of mayor Bonnie Crombie's attempt to take over the OLP -- she got me to register to in the provincial liberals leadership race just to vote against her).

In Toronto, the number of bedrooms per year built peaked in 2001, and went down to below half by 2019. The housing crisis happened because demand went up and supply went down. Nothing more, nothing less. And the reason supply went down isn't "corporation" or "investors", it's municipal governments that made housing illegal and the provinces that enabled them.

https://twitter.com/benmyers29/status/1222613287092785159

Imagine if there was a starvation crisis and it took years to get approvals to plant more farms. That would be insane, right? And it would also be insane if people blamed "farming corporations" for starvation, right? And yet that's where we are right now. People blaming "greedy developers" for the housing crisis that's caused by governments making housing illegal (unless they get a special one-off pardon, like a murder in the USA) combined with rising immigration.

If it really was just investors buying up everything, rents would be cheap. But since it's expensive both to rent and buy, it means there's just not enough stuff for all the people who want it. And if you can make a million dollars for putting up a unit, why wouldn't you? Well, if somebody was stopping you.

[-] Croquette@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

Your point is that blaming corporations is a cop out. My point is that blaming the corporations is not a cop out, and one of the reasons, not the only reason. NIMBY and zoning regulations are definitely also affecting the crisis.

If it really was just investors buying up everything, rents would be cheap.

That is such a naive point of view. Landlords would rather leave a unit empty instead of lowering rent because otherwise it would lower the value of their investment.

The housing market isn't a free market like you seem to imply. People need to have housing, so landlords will definitely gouge their tenants because they can and we see an article pretty much daily of renovictions and rent ballooning up once the lease is at term. Having more supply would definitely alleviate this problem, but it is only part of the solution. REIT buying swath of houses with lower interests than individuals is definitely inflating the prices because they can buy housing at a higher price, causing the other houses in the area to raise as well.

[-] ConfuzedAZ@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Yeah, that one is well known. I was trying to figure out how they made that work with rentals, which don't have that exclusive.

[-] PaganDude@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago

Sorry, but how does that tax exemption work for the landlords then? They have to live in the unit for at least a year to avoid capital gain on the property.

[-] karlhungus@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

That's 9%/year annual rate of return (assuming 2% inflation), which is good, but not unheard of (here's the calculator i used. This ignores all the money they put into the place while they lived in it (roof's and heaters etc aren't cheap). It also discounts that they need to find a place to live in 2021 where all houses just got much more expensive then back in 1986.

That whole time they were paying property tax.

[-] Naatan@lemmy.one 14 points 1 year ago

I was researching the other day when we might expect the housing market to recover to the point where people can actually afford a house again.

Instead, what I found was lots of articles proclaiming that the housing market will "recover" by 2024. By "recover" they meant that the downward trend in $$$ is going up again. Meaning house prices going up.

It really blew my mind that there is so little concern for affordability and it's all about the investments.. So sad. Seriously considering leaving Canada at some point in the future in order to buy a house, which is nuts.

[-] Vakbrain@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 year ago

The beaverton speaks truth once again!

[-] TheControlled@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

As a Lemmy passer-by and one-time resident of Toronto... I almost ate the onion on this one.

[-] AlexRogansBeta@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

And they can't wait until we push our govt to build more homes ... So they can buy them up.

Everyone saying we need more supply is a loon. We need a reallocation of existing homes. Building more will just line these assholes' pockets.

[-] spider@lemmy.nz 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Ahh, didn't know Canadians had their own version of The Onion.

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this post was submitted on 22 Aug 2023
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