Perhaps the most interesting part of the article:
Speaking of the Palisades fire, I'm not sure if anyone has looked into this yet, but they probably should:
Fact-check that, Sugar-Mountain!
wow, its almost as if we should cut off the heads of insurance CEOs and nationalize them all into one low cost government plan thats paid for with pennies on the dollar in taxes.
lol, who am I kidding. Idiot Americans will always prefer paying 3000 dollars for bad coverage, rather than pay 100 in taxes for great coverage.
With climate change, there is no option for “low cost” plan, government or no.
You can’t constantly have massive losses like these fires in a single area all paying out claims and expect to pay them off with low premiums.
I haven't seen it in the comments yet but this is just the death spiral of climate change. Everything will just get worse from here on out as long as society operates the way it does. To everyone's "surprise" I'm sure.
You had me at cutting off the heads of CEOs.
Guillotines go brrrrrrrrr
Or, you know, tackle climate change. But both are equally unlikely.
You'd think that insurance companies would be on the forefront of pushing climate change mitigation and prevention specifically because the impacts of worsening climate change will have a massive impact on their bottom line.
Maybe they can counter some of the petro company propaganda with their own marketing.
This is starting to feel more and more like a planned property grab.
I think it's much simpler honestly: fires like these have been happening every year in California for the past hmm... at least 5 years, maybe more. Insurances are simply catching on and doing what any for-profit company would do in this situation, avoid losing money.
Wildfires are part of the ecology for basically the whole state. Most of the native plants here have evolved to actually depend on and co-exist with routine fire. It's completely normal and natural for this state to burn. The problem is that for 100 years we decided that it should never ever burn at all, so there were many areas of the state that should have burned at least once every ten years that sat there and accumulated unnatural amounts of growth and fuel for ten times that long. So, when we got hit with a megadrought and a fire finally did happen in those places, it was a crazy slate-wiped fire that nothing survived instead of a manageable brush fire that plenty of things would grow back from next year.
Now, is it all bad land management? No, a bunch of shit came together at once to make this message:
California was caught in a mega drought for the better part of a decade and we're still years from our groundwater returning to where it was before the drought.
The Japanese pine beetle killed a lot of pine trees, and that's most of what there is in the Sierra range (yes, there are some oaks and other things, but, well, we're getting there, hold on). So many trees died where they stood that dealing with them all was a nearly impossible task, and beetle-killed wood can't really be used for anything (don't ask me why, but when I was wondering why nobody had come to get all this basically free wood just laying around, that was the answer I got). So, you had huge, huge stands of beetle-kill just standing there, getting drier and drier, waiting for a spark.
The drought also severely dried out lots of other vegetation. There's people I know in the Sierra who said they didn't even have to season their fresh-cut wood. Just chuck it right in the fire, no problem.
Fucking PG&E decided they didn't need to follow best practices because that costs money and spending the money your consumers pay you on stuff that isn't bullshit makes PG&E a sad panda. So, they stopped cutting around their power lines. As someone who partly grew up in the southeast US, this fucking melted my brain. Georgia's a pretty wet, green state, and Georgia Power clear cuts everything down to shin height for probably 50 meters to either side of their transmission lines. Humid-ass Georgia decided they needed it, but we're totally fine to skip it in the Phoenix state, yeah, that makes sense.
So, is climate change to blame? Mostly, yes, climate change is a big, big part of why we're here. Hotter, drier weather with shorter, more intense rain delivery means that the vegetation gets dry faster and stays dry. It means there's less water to fight fires with. That said, it's not the whole picture. There's other ways we could be doing stuff better.
Unfortunately whether intentional or not I think it’ll play out that way specifically for those who could not afford, with time and money, to re-build their homes and buy a new place to live.
For example, parts of Altadena, CA were exempt from redlining, so there is a majority black and brown homeowners in certain neighborhoods who have owned their homes for many years. They couldn’t afford their $1M+ house in today’s market. Insurance will pay them out, but there’s nowhere to live in Altadena now. Maybe some will lease while their home is being rebuilt, but I think many will cash out and buy a new home somewhere else, leaving a lot of opportunity for investors to buy up land and build for-profit housing.
Of course, we now know that insurance companies will not cover some of these properties so may not be a valuable investment, but the community will be forever changed, and I would be surprised if that didn’t include further gentrification.
What? How is it a property grab if no one can live there? Only the stupidest and/or richest people would buy an uninsurable home. You can't get a mortgage without insurance, because the banks want to make sure they still have an asset to repossess if you default. Even if you were that rich, why would you throw your money away on something that will almost certainly be destroyed, sooner rather than later, without a way to recoup any of the cost? If a company like Zillow comes in and snaps up all the uninsurable homes in these regions, they'll be declaring bankruptcy within 5 years.
When your insurance drops your coverage, that's your cue to GET THE FUCK OUT BEFORE YOU HAVE YET LOST EVERYTHING.
Those actuarial tables are designed from the ground up and refined over literally decades (up to around a century in some cases) to predict risk and while they're not always perfectly accurate they are clearly ENOUGH so that they have made it possible for insurers to remain profitable.
IF THEY KNOW ANYTHING THAT YOU DON'T, THEY ARE DEFINITELY ACTING ON IT.
I know you can't literally just drop everything, or fit absolutely everything that matters to you in your car in a pinch, but you WILL be better off if you've packed up and prepped for transport as many as possible of the things that would hurt you and/or inconvenience you the most to leave behind.
So for those of you who haven't already experienced total loss, learn from this. Prepare yourselves. The people displaced by this will strain many other extant failure points in our society. Shit is about to get MUCH, MUCH WORSE.
Likewise there’s a reason all the billionaires are building bunkers in Hawaii and New Zealand and investing in yachts, that Greenland and northern Canada have new geopolitical and economic importance, and that the Panama Canal is at risk of not being able to get enough traffic across. I’m tired of getting gaslit by climate naysayers.
"Everything is fine!" they say as they stockpile supplies and build secret locations to hide.
The problem is that people cannot simply get out at scale. The homes themselves are not portable and represent a significant investment that most homeowners cannot afford to lose. An individual can sell, but that requires there being a buyer, so doesn't actually solve the problem.
What is needed here is a government funded relocation program. The government buys houses in eligible areas at market rate (locked in at the time the program starts, as market rate should collapse to 0). Then, the government does nothing, and saves money from not needing to subsidize the insurance market, and need needing to spend as much on disaster response and relief. Given that the disaster relief savings is largely born by the federal government, this program should receive federal funding as well.
Why should my tax dollars be used to bail out someone who bought a multimillion dollar home in a high risk area? Why should home owners get all the profits from owning but get to skirt the risks?
So someone has say 2 million in real estate and 1.5 million in other Investements. They are at risk of losing some of that 3.5M while still counting themselves wealthy and the government who can't afford to provide a whole laundry list of shit for normal people just hands them a few million to ensure their bad decisions don't cost them anything.
How about we don't subsidize your insurance and if you suck up you just lose your money.
Someone should adjust the silhouette to look like Mario bros Luigi
The exposure isn't quite right and there are artifacts, but I am not a graphic designer so 🤷
It's beautiful lol, your skills are apt. I meant the Batman on the building silhouette but this is equally cool
The issue isn't just local. "This is predicted to cascade into plunging property values in communities where insurance becomes impossible to find or prohibitively expensive - a collapse in property values with the potential to trigger a full-scale financial crisis similar to what occurred in 2008," the report stressed.
I know this isn't the main point of this threadpost, but I think this is another way in which allowing housing to be a store of value and an investment instead of a basic right (i.e. decommodifying it) sets us up for failure as a society. Not only does it incentivize hoarding and gentrification while the number of homeless continues to grow, it completely tanks our ability to relocate - which is a crucial component to our ability to adapt to the changing physical world around us.
Think of all the expensive L.A. houses that just burned. All that value wasted, "up in smoke". How much of those homes' value is because of demand/supply, and how much is from their owners deciding to invest in their resale value? How much money, how much human time and effort could have been invested elsewhere over the years? Notably into the parts of a community that can more reliably survive displacement, like tools and skills. I don't want to argue that "surviving displacement" should become an everyday focus, rather the opposite: decommodifying housing could relax the existing investment incentives towards house market value. When your ability to live in a home goes from "mostly only guaranteed by how much you can sell your current home" to "basically guaranteed (according to society's current capabilities)", people will more often decide to invest their money, time, and effort into literally anything else than increasing their houses' resale value. In my opinion, this would mechanically lead to a society that loses less to forest fires and many other climate "disasters".
I have heard that Japan almost has a culture of disposable-yet-non-fungible homes: a house is built to last its' builders'/owners' lifetime at most, and when the plot of land is sold the new owner will tear down the existing house to build their own. I don't know enough to say how - or if - this ties into the archipelago's relative overabundance of tsunamis, earthquakes, and other natural disasters, but from the outside it seems like many parts of the USA could benefit from moving closer to this Japanese relationship with homes.
As far as the value of the home, you need to consider rebuilding costs. New construction costs in the LA area are on average $440 and higher for custom work.
At those prices, a new house, without the land, will cost at least $500000 to build (also note that a 1130 sq ft house isn’t really what most people want to buy, as the average new house size is around 2000 sq ft, putting the cost of a basic house at $880000, again without the land).
While I mostly agree with your line of thinking, I do feel the urge to point out that most of the value of property is tied to the land underneath the structure, rather than the building itself.
This is largely why one of those Sears catalogue 2-3 bedroom post-war homes is worth significantly more than a similar footprint modern apartment/townhouse a few doors down.
The houses themselves are often seen as a depreciating asset; and for the more unscrupulous land-bankers, these fires just became free demolition.
I guess what I’m saying is, shit’s even more fucked than you thought.. and until we get rid of milquetoast liberal politicians and replace them with actual populist progressives globally, it will only continue to get worse.
The insurance companies had an obligation to maximize shareholder value. That is the sole purpose of insurance companies.
The insurance companies had an obligation to maximize shareholder value. That is the sole purpose of insurance companies.
Look, I get that this is an easy go-to answer for many things, but please add this to expand your understanding a bit more so you have a more complete picture.
Not all insurance companies are public companies with shareholders to satisfy. Mutual Insurance companies are owned by their policy holders. Specifically with California, both State Farm and Liberty Mutual have both exited too. These are both large insurance companies that are NOT driven by "shareholder value". Profits these companies make are issues as dividends to the policy holders, not shareholders.
So the issue of insuring property in California is more than just the standard "greedy shareholders" argument.
This is a really dumb take. Pulling out of a market where it's impossible to even break even is not greedy or corrupt.
I think the curious aspect of this is that business is absolutely aware, and acknowledges existence of the climate change.
Meanwhile the insurance companies are throwing parties right now for pulling out ahead of the disaster. Probably tweaking their models to make sure they're not at risk anywhere else.
Don't worry though, the incoming administration will be working with local governments to prepare for future challenges... Or ignoring them and dismantling any and all efforts to mitigate climate disasters. One or the other.
Man, this thread is reminding me that Lemmy is even worse than Reddit when it comes to being populated by people who have strong opinions about things they don't understand at all.
I FUCKING LOVE MAGNETS
Funny how the rich argue with climate change when it benefits them. For decades they denied it fiercely and now it's time to pay... even if we take all from them (which we should) it's not enough repair the damages their behavior caused.
There are many blue voters who live in areas affected by the Palisades fire
Man insurance is such a scam. They'll only actually offer hypothetical coverage if they know you won't need it 😅
Actually need it? "Well, we have to make a profit! Why would we pay for that thing you're paying us to cover?"
Insurance, both property and health, is completing it's morph into a parasitic value extraction tool with zero actual use. They are committing straight fraud at this point, daring people to sue them for contract breach, knowing many won't
This is what fucking insurance is supposed to be for. It's not a way of making obscene profits. It's a way of making reasonable profits providing a service people need.
The US government ought to require insurers to ensure everywhere had a reasonable cost, or get out of the fucking business. They ought to require a base rate everywhere across the nation. Let everyone see what these fuckers are up to.
In Florida the state insures the highest risk people. It's the same damn thing. Should we let the insurance companies have the low risk clients while we the people fund all the high risk clients?
That's bullshit.
It's a way of making reasonable profits providing a service people need.
And 6 months ago they saw that they were likely to take major losses insuring homes in that area so they stopped renewing policies. So the options were to use the last-resort state provided insurance (FAIR Act), go uninsured, or move. A lot of people didn't switch to the state insurance.
Climate change makes risk unpredictable; risk makes insurance unaffordable or unavailable; no insurance makes mortgages unavailable; without mortgages property values crash
Why is it without mortgages property values crash? Is it because sellers are forced to sell to only people who can pay cash? I suppose that makes sense. And of course those won’t be “people”, those will be banks and investment companies, looking to rent the property out to tenants. So more large chunks of money are siphoned away from the middle class.
Did the CEO's house burns down in the wild fire as well?
The map below shows rates of home insurance nonrenewals in recent years. You can explore your state and areas with the highest rates in the country, including California and Western states facing wildfires and Eastern Seaboard states like Florida and the Carolinas with elevated hurricane risk.
The insurance companies gotta keep their shareholders happy. That is the number 1 priority and fuck the customer.
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