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submitted 9 months ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, "one rape every six minutes," "not all men but always a man," and "giving in is not consenting."

They chant: "Rapist we see you, victim we believe you."

Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.

The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over "rape culture" and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.

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[-] Fox@pawb.social 198 points 9 months ago

not all men but always a man

Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.

[-] narc0tic_bird@lemm.ee 89 points 9 months ago

Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.

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[-] buddascrayon@lemmy.world 24 points 9 months ago

The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.

Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.

[-] hakase@lemm.ee 28 points 9 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I can't speak for how their "sexual violence" criterion is defined, but as for the "rape" statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as "forced penetration", specifically excluding "forced envelopment" from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.

For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there's also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):

an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

And

The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.

Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.

Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the "Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators" section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:

For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later...). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.

And

For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.

To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:

1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months

So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.

So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.

So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).

So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.

Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain't great, but that feels a lot more realistic than "95%", and it's a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you're citing.

BUT IT GETS WORSE...

What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by "rape", because at first "99% of rape is committed by men" looks pretty damning.

Well, "rape" is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as "completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration". That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.

Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category "made to penetrate", that is, "being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated."

So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as "being penetrated" to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why...

Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting "made to penetrate" as, y'know, rape, because it is rape?

an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey

And

The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.

Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:

an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey

And

Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),

Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as "rape". This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).

Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of "made to penetrators" are women ... then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it's important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.

Edit: Here's a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it's pretty damning for the US.

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[-] Fox@pawb.social 25 points 9 months ago

I'm not out to debate the statistics of "REAL problem" with you. I'm pointing out that it's counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they're unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.

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[-] AllHailTheSheep@sh.itjust.works 68 points 9 months ago

imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going "ah yes but what about the men?!?". I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y'all not the time

[-] MellowYellow13@lemmy.world 32 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Take your own fucking advice. If men talking about their own rapes triggers you so, then you are the same crap you are crying about. You are sexist beyond belief.

It's never the fucking time for male abuse victims to speak up and tell their stories, we're always told to shut up and deal with it.

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[-] Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world 31 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Yeah exactly. I'm a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it's sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.

I don't know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we've been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it's more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.

Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I've ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn't uncommon either.

I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there's nothing you can do, it's years too late, you have these thoughts like if I'd been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she's comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it's over, she's safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.

You don't realise how harmful sexual assault is until you've been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn't 'sexual', it's 'assault'.

Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don't know how we fix this, but I've got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don't do that shit. Never, there's never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they're our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.

Yeah, there's wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it's us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.

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[-] Soulg@sh.itjust.works 23 points 9 months ago

The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you're a disgusting liar to claim that.

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[-] moon@lemmy.ml 64 points 9 months ago

Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of 'not all men' vs 'basically all men' threads

[-] barsoap@lemm.ee 30 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.

I'll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It's that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.

As a man, have this attitude (there's subtitles).

As a woman... "Dudes it's only an embellishment" "noone thinks 'all men' is meant seriously" STFU you're being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don't mean it like that right now, in this instance, it's still how it's perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.

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[-] Krauerking@lemy.lol 51 points 9 months ago

Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.

Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.

But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.

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[-] InvertedParallax@lemm.ee 49 points 9 months ago

Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.

I just came here to say "More power to her!", she's setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we've had in society since time immemorial.

[-] Jayjader@jlai.lu 46 points 9 months ago

I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the "not all men but always a man" sign if this weren't in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.

One of the worst times to advocate for men's rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you're leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.

[-] Roflmasterbigpimp@lemmy.world 25 points 9 months ago

I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men's rights activism, 100% correct.

But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like "It happened bc you dressed so seductive", "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .

[-] Makhno@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

One of the worst times to advocate for men's rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you're leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.

Agreed. Unfortunately there's always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard...

People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It's taken me years to move on from people telling me to "man up" or "get over it" about my SA.

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[-] itslilith 34 points 9 months ago

Let's see how long it takes for rape apologists to show up

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[-] 2ugly2live@lemmy.world 34 points 9 months ago

My heart breaks for her. I'm glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I'm not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.

[-] rekabis@lemmy.ca 31 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:

And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).

In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.

I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.

A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.

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[-] KillerTofu@lemmy.world 28 points 9 months ago

Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.

Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.

[-] Ifera@lemmy.world 30 points 9 months ago

This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

[-] buddascrayon@lemmy.world 23 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it's pertains to France not America.

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[-] pyre@lemmy.world 26 points 9 months ago

guys always is an embellishment. it's almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you're living in a fantasy land.

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[-] Walk_blesseD 25 points 9 months ago

Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄

Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.

[-] mightyfoolish@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago

50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.

Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:

How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities

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[-] MellowYellow13@lemmy.world 22 points 9 months ago

Terrible fucking sign and tone deaf af

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this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2024
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